simple joseki question

entropi · #1

Hi,
The usual white move is at a or b which makes sense. But I am not sure I understand correctly why 1 as in the below diagram is bad.

So I ask: Why or when is white 1 a bad move and how should black answer?

I can imagine possible ansers as "it's too small" or "it is gote".

If the answer is "it's too small" can you please roughly say how many it is worth so that I can guess the appropriate timing to play it?

If the answer is "it is gote", I would further ask "doesn't it weaken the black stones and prepare for an attack if black does not answer"?

Thanks in advance for replies.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

fwiffo · #2

It's both gote and small. IMO, Black should respond with tenuki. Depending on what's going on in the upper right, black could press down on the group to build up the top side of the board. C12 also seems possible.

entropi · #3

Thanks fwiffo. But the sequence below bothers me a bit if black tenukis. OK it is still gote, but look at the black shape, so many stones doing nothing (EDIT: well, I mean of course they are not doing nothing but they look a bit overconcentrated to me), whereas white takes the corner (even if it is small) and is completely open to the left side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If, on the other hand, black does nothing in the corner and plays something like that, then why did he play the 3-3 stone at all?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · #4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X . . X . a 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

threatens to attack at "a". So :b2:

is a good move.

Trying to calculate the size of a play at this point in the game is dicey. If Both Black and White groups were secure, it would be a large endgame move. Here it strengthens White a bit and weakens Black a bit, so it is larger. Maybe you can think of it as gaining 10 points or so, but settling at "b" gains at least 15 points.

Bill Spight · #5

entropi wrote:

Thanks fwiffo. But the sequence below bothers me a bit if black tenukis. OK it is still gote, but look at the black shape, so many stones doing nothing, whereas white takes the corner (even if it is small) and is completely open to the left side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | C 5 W W B C C C . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | C C 1 2 B C C C . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | C O X 4 C X . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | C O 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | C C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For the sake of argument, let's assume that White's play is sente. And let's add the endgame plays (marked). And let's indicate the "territory" for each player. On that basis this is an even position, right? (Each player has made the same number of plays.)

Here is where the textbooks play people false, IMO. I do not think that there is a pro in the world who would assess this position as equal. Moi, I think that Black is about 10 points ahead. (Based on my reading of the literature, I think that most pros would assess Black's lead as a few points less,) The key is that Black has greater possibilities for center expansion than White.

Quote:

If, on the other hand, black does nothing in the corner and plays something like that, then why did he play the 3-3 stone at all?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's do some tewari. In this position Black's 3-3 play can be viewed as sente. Let's remove it and White's response. That will not alter the value of the position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now the questionable move is :wc:

, isn't it?

amnal · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I believe there is a strong case for playing like this. The point in the corner and this extension can be considered as, to some extent, miai.

White's move is considered incorrect because it is small and early, and black wants to go and do something else.

If white goes and continues in the corner, he's playing on the second line in gote, so black knows he's doing fine - to me, nothing else really matters, there's no way for black to do badly out of it, with white investing so many moves.

If white reverts to the joseki move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Then it just becomes a question of when white should play this push. We know that the answer is not *now*, because black can tenuki and take a much bigger point, and I won't go into when to actually play it here (I think senseis has good material on this).

EDIT: I should add that I wouldn't consider this anything like the only way to play, but it seems like a simple way to continue following general principles.

hoohoo · #7

I think that move is worth around 16p gote considering follow ups if i'm not mistaken. So its a large gote early endgame move and should therefor be played then. Unless of course theres l&d implications.

CarlJung · #8

entropi wrote:

Thanks fwiffo. But the sequence below bothers me a bit if black tenukis. OK it is still gote, but look at the black shape, so many stones doing nothing (EDIT: well, I mean of course they are not doing nothing but they look a bit overconcentrated to me), whereas white takes the corner (even if it is small) and is completely open to the left side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yes, it's overconcentrated. But you took gote twice to accomplish it. Chances are that your opponent could use his two sentes in a way that is more profitable.

entropi · #9

Thanks again for all the answers and in particular for the one from Bill. I hope it will open a door for me to change my poor way of judging the local positions

simple joseki question

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