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What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014) ?
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Author:  LinuxGooo [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014) ?
The global Go community is mourning since Sunday, 30th November... legend GO Seigen (12th June 1914-30th Nov 2014) demised at the age of 100.

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For me as a beginner there is a relevant question still open as I have yet not studied GO Seigen ? - Can we - as beginners / amateurs - still learn something from Go Seigen's "old games" and his "thinking about Go" ? For a modern Go style in 21st century ?

We may remember: This icon of GO retired at the age of 50, in 1964 after a motorbike accident from playing professionally the big tournaments. Is his way of playing still something we like to learn in 2014 ?

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Yet I have not read a book of Go Seigen, so I have no clear opinion about this extra ordinary player.

To make a start we might take a look at following... and pls feel free to share your own experiences with your studies about Go Seigen, e.g. book sources, games reviews etc. ...

Dwyrin.TV broadcasted on 3rd Dec 2014:
Batt’s lecture and tribute to GO SEIGEN (1914-2014)

1st game review... 19 Nov 1953: Go Seigen (9P / black) vs. Sakata Eio (8p / white)… b+res
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2nd game review... 2nd Nov 1938: Onoda Chiyotaro (6P / black) vs. Go Seigen (6P / white)… w+res.

All infos inclusive screencast video with Kifus (SGFs) here.
Author:  often [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
I once asked a pro (Liang Wei Tang 9p) if there was anybody he played/interacted with that made him feel like they were in way over their head.

He responded with Go Seigen. I forgot the setting, but i do remember that he said Go was very much retired at that point and still pointing out things that Liang Wei Tang didn't think about.
Author:  Shenoute [ Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
While I'm pretty sure we can still learn from Go Seigen's games (as with any other professional, regardless of how old the games are), I must admit I've always felt that his games were too 'special' for me. Not that I really understand what's going on in other professionals' games either but at least I get the feeling that I can follow what's going on sometimes.

Lately, I've been replaying a lot of Kitani Minoru's games from the 50's and I greatly enjoy them while at the same time I feel I'm learning something about playing more calmly, not being afraid of letting the other playing develop a moyo, etc. With Go Seigen's games, I feel I'm watching something incomprehensible.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
His games 1933+ are a good source for learning exchanges.
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
Shenoute wrote:
While I'm pretty sure we can still learn from Go Seigen's games (as with any other professional, regardless of how old the games are), I must admit I've always felt that his games were too 'special' for me. Not that I really understand what's going on in other professionals' games either but at least I get the feeling that I can follow what's going on sometimes.

Lately, I've been replaying a lot of Kitani Minoru's games from the 50's and I greatly enjoy them while at the same time I feel I'm learning something about playing more calmly, not being afraid of letting the other playing develop a moyo, etc. With Go Seigen's games, I feel I'm watching something incomprehensible.


Whilst I agree Go Seigen's games are at a higher level and harder to understand than others, I recall an anecdote that T Mark Hall, who had long been a 2 or 3 dan, improved to 4 dan largely by replaying and inputting Go Seigen's games for GoGoD. So perhaps learning subconsciously by osmosis works best with a high input concentration of go genius even if it is beyond conscious understanding.
Author:  LinuxGooo [ Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
Tks for all sharing your thoughts... wonderful. What do you think about following?
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A special lecture (level: 5k to 5d) at the Nihon Ki-in summer go camp 2014 with Michael Redmond (9PDan) about Go Seigen’s speed oriented opening with the chance to move quickly to the sides and overall, targeting at a well-balanced playing. It's the 1st game of Kamakura Jubango (ten-game match from 1939-1941 played in Japan).

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(Rec.: The annually event Nihon Ki-in Summer Go Camp targets at to let Non-Japanese Go players (suitable for from 10 kyu up to high dan players) get stronger, feel and learn the Japanese culture of Go through fantastic programs provided by the Japan Go Association Nihon Ki-in (Tokyo). In autumn 2014 was commemorated the 90th anniversary of the foundation. It took place at The Nihon Ki-in from 26th August till September 4th 2014.)

The video of BadukMovies’ Episode #164 (22 Sept 2014) cannot be integrated into the forum.

You find the Kifu (SGF), book infos and BadukMovies video link here

Kitani Minoru (8P) plays with black against Go Seigen (7P) on 28th Sept 1939…. result: w+2
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Author:  jeromie [ Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
Shenoute wrote:
...I've always felt that his games were too 'special' for me...


Uberdude wrote:
...Go Seigen's games are at a higher level and harder to understand than others...


I just wanted to chime in and say that this oft-repeated sentiment kept me from looking at his games for quite some time. If dan level players feel this way, what hope did I have of learning anything from studying Go Seigen? In truth, I shouldn't have been scared away.

When I actually sat down and replayed one of his games, (I started with the first game from his Kamakura match with Kitani.) I didn't feel like the game was hard to understand. In fact, the ideas in his go felt quite clear. His moves were perfectly consistent with one another, and I could see the brilliance shining through.

I can see why people say his games are hard to understand; it would be nearly impossible for me to study his games and learn to follow Go's style of play. Every one of his moves is backed up by a level of confidence and depth of reading that I can never hope to approach. But I just want to encourage other weak players to take a look at his games for yourself before dismissing them as above you. Go's style is his alone, but his brilliance is for all.

It's possible, of course, that his other games are more opaque. I've only played through one game so far. I do think I learned something even from that one game, though. His willingness to play lightly and with a disregard for moves that I would have thought were sente allowed him to dictate much of the pace of the early game and take a host of big points. It would be disastrous for me to copy him without the underlying strength to back it up, but it was a joy to watch the game unfold.
Author:  drmwc [ Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
I was under the impression that T Mark entered most of the games in GoGod manually. So his strength increase may have been attributable to having played through 10s of thousands of pro games, and not specifically Go Seigen's.

I personally find Go's games very hard to understand. I enjoy them, though - I have the complete collection in some Korean books. I've played through quite a few.


Uberdude wrote:

Whilst I agree Go Seigen's games are at a higher level and harder to understand than others, I recall an anecdote that T Mark Hall, who had long been a 2 or 3 dan, improved to 4 dan largely by replaying and inputting Go Seigen's games for GoGoD. So perhaps learning subconsciously by osmosis works best with a high input concentration of go genius even if it is beyond conscious understanding.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
Quote:
I was under the impression that T Mark entered most of the games in GoGod manually. So his strength increase may have been attributable to having played through 10s of thousands of pro games, and not specifically Go Seigen's.


No, it was specifically Go's games because that's what he started with. 800 uncommented games made him two dans stronger.

That, though, raises the question of why he apparently did not improve further by inputting more pro games. Two answers to that I think:

(1) He did become significantly stronger; it just wasn't reflected in his grade because he spent far less time in tournaments where he could acquire the rating points. But he did win several British Opens and at his peak I'd say he was 6-dan for a while.

(2) As top pro games became harder to find, he had to turn to low-dan and amateur games (amateurs usually meant pro-am or pros when they were young). He used to complain regularly how amateur games in particular sapped his strength, and I have heard from a Chinese pro that regularly teaching amateurs reduces pro strength by about two stones.

Incidentally, today (9 Dec) is the anniversary of Mark's death and I have just heard from his also centenarian mother that she is managing to recall happy memories of him. Some of you may wish to remember Mark yourselves, perhaps by playing through one of the Go Seigen games he made available.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
John Fairbairn wrote:
at his peak I'd say he was 6-dan for a while.


From what I have seen at EGCs, TMark was a consistent 4d. Maybe he had good exceptions during the British Championship?

I myself had different experiences when studying pro games until weak 5d versus, after a break, stronger 5d. Before the break, I had difficulties to undestand the modern aspects of pro games; after the break, everything made sense because, in the meantime, I had further developed my go theoretical understanding. Therefore, I consider it possible that TMark simply hit his "temporary" limit of how much new he could learn from pro games.
Author:  Shenoute [ Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
Uberdude wrote:
Whilst I agree Go Seigen's games are at a higher level and harder to understand than others, I recall an anecdote that T Mark Hall, who had long been a 2 or 3 dan, improved to 4 dan largely by replaying and inputting Go Seigen's games for GoGoD. So perhaps learning subconsciously by osmosis works best with a high input concentration of go genius even if it is beyond conscious understanding.

Thanks for the tip, I'll make sure to try that (I really feel I could do with more go genius in my games :D).
Author:  uPWarrior [ Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What can we learn from Go Seigen (1914 - 30th Nov 2014)
I really enjoyed Michael Redmond's lecture. Are available any other video commentaries in english (by him)?
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