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| Dontbtme's Notebook http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12101 |
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Dontbtme's Notebook |
Hello everyone. I created this thread to keep track of typical situations in which I failed to play properly. My hope is that, this way, I'll be able to review them easily in the future so that they can sink in eventually. Let's begin. The Kick and Pincer Usually, kicking the approaching stone and then jumping at 'a' is a suitable strategy to attack White when having already a pincer in place... But what if Black doesn't have this pincer, but kick the approaching stone anyway before pincering around 1 instead of jumping at 'a'? You can encounter this kind of stuff a lot in Tygem and such. So better to know how to deal with this than to be sorry. I consulted the Josekipedia, and it turned out that the only sequence good enough for my liking which didn't involve a ladder was this one: Note that, if the opponent pushes instead of making an empty triangle, since he'll have to come back and connect at 3 anyway, White will have a better result than before. If the ladder is good for White, she can also turn at 1 and then double hane. Since the ladder is good for White, Black won't cut like this: That's it for the Kick and Pincer, but as soon as I find another typical situation in which I failed to play properly, I'll be sure to post it here. See you soon. |
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| Author: | cyndane [ Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
Dontbtme wrote: I usually sacrifice 2 when they push: |
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
Thank you, cyndane. I saw this variation in Josekipedia and forgot it afterwards probably because it wasn't in The 21st Century Dictionary Of Basic Joseki... but after you mentioned it I checked again in Josekipedia, and there, it was Takao Shinji's variation that I couldn't find!  Anyway, the sequence you propose if Black pushes instead of making an empty triangle seems better to me than the one I put (?), so thank you again. |
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
The Pincer, Back off and Descent Ok, so, I started using the Guo Juan's Training System a few months ago, and I tried the other day to apply in one of my games a variation deemed to take advantage of the marked stone by descending at 6... But when White pushed at 7, I thought I couldn't hane at 'a' because of the cut at 'b' and retreated by stretching there myself, which was really painful... I checked afterwards Josekipedia, and found this very good variation for Black: Does anyone have an idea why the cut at 'a' would be worse for White than this submissive result? I'm really confused.
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Dontbtme wrote: DT, depending on the rest of the board,how about  taking the center direction ? |
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
If Black wanted to develop the right side, EdLee, then I believe the knight's move at 'a' would be more efficient than your diagonal move (was it an editing mistake?). But my question concerned the descent at 'b' which takes away White's eyespace. Why wouldn't White cut at 4 but instead play at 'a' as is suggested in the Josekipedia? So I guess my question is: 'What can Black do after White's cut?' |
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| Author: | TegaiS [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
As EdLee said the evaluation depends on the rest of the board. |
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
TegaiS wrote: As EdLee said the evaluation depends on the rest of the board. Certainly, but what I'd like to find is in fact a continuation which would demonstrate in the local context that White's cut was an overplay. Because if it isn't an overplay, then I would have stretched once as Black before making a hane in order to prevent the cut (though that would be painful). But maybe Black can take the advantage afterwards (in the local context) whatever White does? For example, if she attaches the lone Black stone like this: If this was the best White could do then I'd certainly say she shouldn't have cut and created two groups in the first place, but what if after the attachment, she stretches the other way instead? In this case, I couldn't find a clear way for Black to take (locally) the advantage. Does anyone have an idea how to do it? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
Why not connect the cutting point on the top side? That would be consistent with your corner move to take white's eyes. |
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
If Black connects, Uberdude, then I guess we should expect a running fight along those lines, right? If my sequence is as good as it gets for White (tell me if it's not the case), then if we compare: _ Black has 1 floating group, territory in the corner plus a potential one on the top side. _ White has 1 weak group plus a potential territory on the right side which is still open at 'a'... Hence I'd say Black has the advantage here. If (and I say 'if') this is the best White can do after playing the marked stone, then I become more and more inclined to think that yes, White (locally) shouldn't have cut after the hane but should indeed have leaned on Black as in the following diagram (thank you Josekipedia): |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
Once fighting has spread halfway down each side of the board, I feel it is difficult to judge the result without looking at the whole board, since the other corners will determine each players prospects with the weak groups on the sides. In the first diagram, what if white were to play  in the vicinity of  instead? If black tries to save the two stones, he will be squeezing out the toothpaste to get white out.
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
The thing is, skydyr, that I think that White has a serious shape problem with her top group. If White defends the cutting point with 1 or whatever, then I think 2 is plenty enough for Black. Even if White goes out first, Black can reinforce himself and the cutting point remains, which means that White has still to connect, and it should lead to something similar to the running fight I proposed two posts ago, except that now the second white group is also weak... So maybe this is even worse for White. What do you think? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
I think that fighting looks good for Black, which is to be expected following white's dubious cut. However perhaps white should atari where Black extends after Black's second line crawl before extending his 3 stones to stop Black making such nice shape. |
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
Ok, Uberdude, challenge accepted!  (This thread is going crazy, I'm glad I started it  )So, if I understood correctly, the 1-2-3 sequence is what you think White should do (after the cut), right? I tried my best to come up with good continuations, but if anyone see a suspicious move, you know what to do. So, I think Black should push once and then jump at 6, which makes miai the attack on either white group. If Black defends the top group with 7 or whatever, Black can attack the right one with something like 8. Black should then take advantage of this fight somehow and have time to come back at the top with an extension around a. Sounds good? But if White defends the right group with something like 1, then, the peep at 2 is very severe. If White connects, then I think Black can simply sacrifice 3 stones to gain a great framework on the top side and be happy with it... If White tries to complicate things, then Black will cut and I really don't think there's much White can do afterwards. Are those variations good enough to agree that, in the following diagram, if White cuts at 'a' instead of playing the hane at 4, she should have (locally) a worse result than this one? Anyone? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
Black's shape is too thin to attack strongly as in your 1st diagram if this ladder works: I would think about pushing on the right a few times and seeing if after that you can peep and then throw some loose net around white that he has to play bad moves to break out of or live (unlikely to actually die with the 2nd line attachment at the top). |
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
Thank you Uberdude. I'm losing my head over this cutting problem  The best I could find after your pointers was something like this: Even though it's White's turn now, since the top group isn't settled yet, I guess Black should still be able to make territory around 'a' plus gain something in sente from attacking the right white group with a loose net or a pincer... What do you think? This is less glorious than my previous overoptimistic variations, but... Does it still look (locally) better for Black than the following diagram? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
I don't like your 7 there, it's too slack. After playing those locally bad moves of pushing from behind, you need to make up for it by being very mean to the top group, with something like the below. But I'm not sure it's mean enough. And black's stick is still pretty low on libs if white cuts at a (maybe not yet). |
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
Uberdude wrote: But I'm not sure it's mean enough. And black's stick is still pretty low on libs if white cuts at a (maybe not yet). Well, your variation seems mean enough to me (but I'm a very kind person, that's why  )Anyway, if White tries to cut directly I think Black could keep attacking the whole thing, as long as he's ready to lean some more on the right group, though that might be giving up too much territory(?) White is gaining territory on the right, but is giving up control over the center to Black... How should we judge the situation, locally? (I'm not sure anymore  ) Does Black still has a clear advantage?
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
The Tight Pincer vs High Approach New Trend Hello guys. I came back with a new question for you. Once again, it is about the 'punishment' of a joseki overplay I found at Guo Juan's Internet Go School. Below is how the Joseki begins. Next, White should play at 'a' to develop influence or at 'b' to take the corner.  The issue begins when White plays at 1 instead, which is a mistake according to YoungSun Yoon 8p in her lecture. The following diagram shows how Black should respond to take advantage of White's mistake. Here's my problem: after White connects her outside stones at 9, I would have protected the bottom group at 'a'... But since YoungSun Yoon recommends 10 to develop the right side, I suppose that means Black' stones at the bottom should be fine, even if White tries the wedge at 'b'. Even so, I can't see any way for Black to save the four marked stones after White plays at 1.  If the ladder is good for White, she has good influence towards the left side on top of killing Black' stones. I guess Black could try some kind of squeeze like this... But White could forget the four stones all together and use the ladder anyway, as in the following: If someone could put some light on this for me, I would really really appreciate it 
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| Author: | Dontbtme [ Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dontbtme's Notebook |
Ok so, after thinking about it some more, I came up with a better result for Black than the ladder one, beginning with a solid connection at 1: like before, if White captures the marked stones, Black will more or less seal her in. Black's influence has defects so I think this would be playable for White. On the other hand White could also jump and split Black instead of capturing his four stones: Since White is alive in the corner and has now sente to gain some advantage on the bottom side or wherever, I still believe White would be okay with this result.  So, my question remains: Does anyone know how Black could locally gain the upper hand after White played the marked stone? |
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