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Large Avalanche (Onadare) question
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12674		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Jhyn [ Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Large Avalanche (Onadare) question
Here is the sgf of a recent game. My question is about the large avalanche variation in bottom left.



After the game, I checked a joseki dictionary that stated that the moves up to :b33: are a possible variation. Nevertheless I felt quite uncomfortable and at :w42: I am pretty sure I have a losing position.

I now think :b35: was a shape mistake, but even if :b35: was at :w36:, the shape of white is untouchable and the tsuke of :w42: make me feel like I have a badly placed weak group.

Am I wrong in my analysis or is there something wrong about the earlier direction, i.e. playing large avalanche with an enemy stone on two sides? All comments are appreciated.

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Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Large Avalanche (Onadare) question
At move 35, why not the hane at D9? I haven't analyzed it, but it seems thematic.

At move 41, I don't know that J5 is best, but to be consistent you have to follow it up with a hane on move 43 - either that or don't play it.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Large Avalanche (Onadare) question
Here is what I get searching the go4go database with kombilo:

#1) Instead of extending at B6 (move :b25: ) The most common play is to connect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O O O X 4 . , .
$$ | . X O X X X O X . . .
$$ | . O O 2 . X O 3 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


149 pros played your way vs 254 that connected as above -- not quite twice as frequent.

The continuation is as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O O O X X . , .
$$ | 5 X O X X X O X . . .
$$ | . O O X . X O O 4 . .
$$ | . . . 1 2 . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


And then black tennukis. I don't know if you find this trade better, but it's at least an alternative, and maybe since more pros play this way it's worth considering?

Given that you extend as you did in the game, connecting is still the most common response after white plays atari (110 plays vs 39):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O O O X 6 . , .
$$ | . X O X X X O X 5 . .
$$ | . O O 4 . X O 3 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


Then either white jumps and the fight continues like this, with white either a or b next:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X O O O X X 2 4 b
$$ | . X O X X X O X O 3 .
$$ | . O O X . X O O . . .
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


Or white pushes and something like this happens:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O 7 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . X O 5 4 2 . 8 . . .
$$ | . X X O O O X X 1 . .
$$ | . X O X X X O X O . .
$$ | . O O X . X O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


So again I don't really feel qualified to say this result is better for black, but it's a more common way it seems.

Finally, white's push :w34: at a doesn't occur at all in pro play, the common responses are either attach at b or jump to c:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X a . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . O . b . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . X . . . .
$$ | . X X O O O X . . , .
$$ | . X O X X X O X O . .
$$ | . O O X . X O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


The closest I could find were two games where white attaches first and then pushes. Black plays hane at a as Joaz suggested, or turns with the cutting stones at b:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . O . 1 b . . .
$$ | . X O . . . X 2 . . .
$$ | . X X O O O X . . , .
$$ | . X O X X X O X O . .
$$ | . O O X . X O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


Given that pros don't play that push, it's tempting to see it as a bad move (it is pushing from behind), and I wonder if black could get away with something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . .
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . X . . . .
$$ | . X X O O O X . . , .
$$ | . X O X X X O X O . .
$$ | . O O X . X O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]


But like I said, I don't actually know anything about go, only about querying databases :)
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Large Avalanche (Onadare) question
Looking at the whole board after move 34, the problem here is that White has Q4. Almost always, when pros play this variation, Black either occupies the Q4 area, or that area is uninteresting for White to build strength in. However, with White's 4-4, this is good for White's moyo to develop. Locally this may be joseki, but globally this is not good for Black.

As an aside, this is why I don't like playing avalanche joseki. You get so caught up trying to remember the next move (because if you make the smallest misstep, the result can be disastrous) that it's hard to envision the end of the variation and make sure the global result is good for you. I also think it takes away early game creativity, as people are only trying to play what they read in their textbook.
Author:  Jhyn [ Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Large Avalanche (Onadare) question
Thank you for your answers.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
At move 35, why not the hane at D9? I haven't analyzed it, but it seems thematic.

At move 41, I don't know that J5 is best, but to be consistent you have to follow it up with a hane on move 43 - either that or don't play it.


I thought the cut was unbearable, but it really isn't. The hane is interesting.
As for the inconsistence, I was aware of it, but I felt that I should accept I just played a bad move and try to recover the proper direction, rather than keep struggling with my group and get into a losing position.

emeraldemon wrote:
Given that you extend as you did in the game, connecting is still the most common response after white plays atari (110 plays vs 39)


I never considered this connection. I felt that it was defending a useless stone, but it's actually making black's group quite a bit weaker as well. This is the variation I find most convincing.

Quote:
Looking at the whole board after move 34, the problem here is that White has Q4. Almost always, when pros play this variation, Black either occupies the Q4 area, or that area is uninteresting for White to build strength in. However, with White's 4-4, this is good for White's moyo to develop. Locally this may be joseki, but globally this is not good for Black.


Do you mean that :b7: was a bad move and I should have played C6? Or is there a way to get the proper direction once my opponent enters the avalanche variation?
Author:  Solomon [ Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Large Avalanche (Onadare) question
Jhyn wrote:
Quote:
Looking at the whole board after move 34, the problem here is that White has Q4. Almost always, when pros play this variation, Black either occupies the Q4 area, or that area is uninteresting for White to build strength in. However, with White's 4-4, this is good for White's moyo to develop. Locally this may be joseki, but globally this is not good for Black.


Do you mean that :b7: was a bad move and I should have played C6? Or is there a way to get the proper direction once my opponent enters the avalanche variation?


I don't think :b7: is bad, but once you play it you have to expect to give White influence. What about G3 instead of G4 for 13 (G3, B4, C3, D5), then use sente to take F16? I think this result is better than what happened in game.
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