Another member on this forum, daniel_the_smith, was kind enough to give me some comments on a game I played for the L19 tournament (viewtopic.php?f=9&p=26104).

One thing that I was curious about was the best way to attack the black group on the left, locally, from the following board position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Attack marked stones!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O B . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I know that it might not be the best timing to attack the group, but locally, what is the best way to attack it?

What bugs me is the intersection at "a". I wish I had a white stone there. I could play there, but black can easily jump out, and "a" then just looks over-concentrated to me.

Questions:

A.) Considering the local situation, what's the best way to attack the group on the left?

B.) Attacking the left immediately might not be a good overall global strategy. What is a good overall strategy? One way that Daniel brought up was to play H16 to keep the top group weak. Any other ideas?

_________________
be immersed

Hmm, looking at this again, it seems the top must be urgent since both players have weakish groups there.

Maybe H16 is not right, though-- black can give up some stones to damage white's weak group further:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Attack marked stones!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X 4 O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X 1 2 , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X 3 X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . X 6 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O B . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EDIT (continuing discussion from the other thread):

I called P3 jealous because it's in a small area; it's like you don't want your opponent to have anything at all. The side right next to it is both bigger and more open than the corner, so if you want to invade, that's the logical place. It's nice to know Myung-Wan Kim agrees with me.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Attack Marked Stones! (My solution)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O B . . . 3 . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X 2 . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm no expert. This seems to put some pressure on the group. Although it says, "I'm aiming to capture you whole" It speaks towards building pressure later, perhaps?

Maybe this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Attack Marked Stones! (My solution)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O B . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong, but could this help set up an invasion in the lower side later on, while still putting pressure on the black group? More aggressive than the previous one. I think it has eyes on the lower side, but black can't protect both. What do you guys think?

_________________
"Yeah, just imagine: A place where mosquitos carry off mid-size komodo dragons."

It's interesting that you bring up , because actually, to deal with the local situation in the game, I tried the same move. However, I was a bit too slow.

The game sequence went like this (locally):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 7 . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O B . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 1 2 . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
be immersed

Ah. I see. I have it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Attack marked stones!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . B , 2 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O B . 3 . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

One point higher should work in a pinch, methinks.

What do the stronger players think? In such a case, Black diving for the side would be inadvisable.

_________________
"Yeah, just imagine: A place where mosquitos carry off mid-size komodo dragons."

I still think the move in this position is dealing with the top.

If white does play that , though, I think black will more likely respond here, and then there's no more attack at all:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Attack marked stones!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O B . 2 . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Globally, I would think about N15, after which G16 is more interesting.

After N15, I'd consider about attacking with B9.

kirby: there isn't any attack that will help you at this stage of game.
in my opinion 1 in the only logical attack if you wanna attack this group.

a,b,c are some other points of intrest.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Attack marked stones!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . O . c . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O B . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . a . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O B . . . 3 . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . X b . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X 2 a . . c . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't like this at all. After the 1-2 exchange white loses a tremendous amount of aji along the lower side - potential invasions at a, b, c, lose much of their effectiveness. The black group on the left is not nearly weak enough to justify this.

_________________
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort

I also have an attack-that-group question regarding this game. A few moves later, the board looked like this. How should black go about attacking the white group on the top right?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . X . . . X X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

same answer here..you don't attack a group unless you know you will get something out of it.

top right 3-3 point is empty and can be invaded but now it is safe because white group is weak. if white plays something like 'a' then he can invade the corner.

i laid my sequence on top. see if you like what i did..

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Thanks Magicwand, but I wanted to know how black can attack the marked white stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . W . . W W X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . X . . . X X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Attack marked stones!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . b X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . O . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O B . . . . . . . . . d . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . e . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . h . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As others have said, there is no strong attack on the B stones, so wait and see what develops. Locally, your move a looks best, taking territory now and preparing to attack later. This move is actually quite large territorially, so W can be satisfied if B jumps into the center to remain safe from attack.

Another idea would be to defend the top W group with a move at b or c. If W gets strong here, he can contemplate attacking the B group to the left. Invading the upper right corner is also a distant possibility.

But the idea I like best is jumping out to d. B probably has to defend the bottom territory with a move around e, then W can jump to f. This sequence limits the B side territory, defends the weak point at g, starts making center territory, and indirectly strengthens the W upper group.

I think W is doing fine territorially, so there is no need for drastic action. If W counted the game and felt he was behind, then it would make sense to try an invasion at h to break up the B lower territory.

ok i will give you the sequence that is a reasonable attack.
but this will not work because black is too weak to attack.
you can try to get some influence around 'b's and it might work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 1 2 . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X . W . 4 W W X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X . . 6 5 3 8 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . W 9 . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O . . X . a . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . b b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b b O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . X . . . X X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Not all attacks generate profit. This is a hard lesson to learn because I don't think it's really mentioned very often in literature. Most literature is centered on how to attack. But I think* this is a case where attacking a weak group is attacking just for the sake of attacking. What profit do you expect? Center influence? The center looks pretty dame right now anyway. Territory somewhere? 'a' in the original diagram gives some territory, but it just encourages black to jump out, effectively enclosing white in the bottom left corner. Oops, you just induced your opponent to seal you in. For an outright kill? Always a kyu-ish line of play when the group isn't yet enclosed (ie: you can't read your way to L&D from this position).

Don't attack if it's not clear what secondary profit you're getting. I think this is a position where learning when not to attack is called for. Really black's stones aren't securing a lot of territory anyway, since they have an open skirt. So the liability is entirely black's, and white can leave it as aji and black needs to add a move or two still anyway.

I think Daniel's right and a white move up top is called for right now. White is getting enclosed, which is never a good idea, even if you can still make life. P11 is also a big point. The timing seems about right but not before you're sure all your weak groups are handled.

*Standard I'm-a-kyu-level-player disclaimer here

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1k KGS

Locally there is a strong attack on the marked black stones is not possible. Therefore, in my opinion, the standard a is the best. This move takes territory as profit and reduces black's base at the same time, giving it pressure. It also reduces the amount of aji of those two captured black stones. I don't know of a better move on the left side.

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