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bully or donkey?
bully 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
donkey 33%  33%  [ 1 ]
both 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
neither 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
don't ask me, i only work here 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
i am too afraid of being wrong to say what i think 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
i don't understand the question 33%  33%  [ 1 ]
i do understand the question, but i don't care what the answer is 33%  33%  [ 1 ]
i clicked on this post by mistake 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
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 Post subject: bully or donkey?
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:18 pm 
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In case the question isn't obvious, it's asking whether you think white is behaving like a bully or a donkey in descending to the second line.
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PS.
Aside from the question asked (which to date 78 viewers evidently feel unable to answer anonymously!), the pictures reveal a couple of flaws in my mapping algorithms, which i will address in a future posting in Commonsense Go thread. Yes, i know you don't care... but i do!


Last edited by djhbrown on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: bully or donkey?
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:28 pm 
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here's another one:
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 Post subject: Re: bully or donkey?
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:35 am 
Judan

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I'll answer as I wish to encourage you to post content about Go rather than going on about swim or wacky cultural reference youtube videos.

I don't know what style of move "donkey" characterises, but this white descent seems like a reasonable move to me: it has miai to connect to either side so takes away the eyespace of that black group, unsettling it. If it's unsettled white should be able to naturally prevent black making much in the centre left area. White would also like to win the lower left ko by playing at b6 rather than connecting (but loses a lot if then loses the ko), and unsettling the top group could make some suitably big threats. The other area that looks big to me is m3.


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Post #4 Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:37 pm 
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The "donkey" is a stubborn player who never changes his plan, never changes his tune. When he looks in the mirror, the donkey does not see a donkey, but a supreme being. The confident donkey is quietly smug; the insecure one loudly overbearing, eager to shout out what he sees as fault in others.
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Post #5 Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Descent looks strong in the first position:
[*]It makes miai of connecting either side
[*]It is big territorially
[*]It offers future splitting/attacking possibilities

The second one also looks big - there is a bit more reading to do here. There are a few possible follow-ups. I've not counted, so I don't know which is best.

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Post #6 Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:21 pm 
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this one is the same kind of thing with a slightly different local shape. Were it played by an MCTS bot, we might say the bot was "On Tilt", making a last-ditch desperate lunge in a game that anyone with a sense of decency would have gracefully bowed out from long before.
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perhaps black had been browbeaten into acquiescence by a fighting-spirit guru who told him to not resign until the bitter end, which came a couple of moves later when black ended up with the exact same shape as his misadventure in the lower left.

throughout the game, black demonstrated a cavalier attitude towards the safety of his own groups, single-mindedly going hell-for-leather after semeais here, there and everywhere.

a subspecies of the the bully-donkey genera, this black plays like a Twit, a dinosaur whose pathological hubris twitters away from out of a skull so thick and a skin so thin it needs a golden fur hat in summer as well as winter.
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Post #7 Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Remark: abutting same-coloured shadows can reinforce each other's propagation; that is why, in the example given, black's left cluster reaches so far out into the centre, even though the shadow of the upper cluster is curtailed because that cluster is weak. there is also a typo in the picture; the shadow of white's upper left live cluster stretches a touch further than shown - but not very far, as its propagation is inhibited by black's shadows on either side.


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Post #8 Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:58 pm 
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another example, this time from a lightning game, the Blitzkrieg Bully's favourite tempo
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Post #9 Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:32 am 
Judan

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If you want to play better, I suggest you stop focusing on making emotive psychological evaluations of your opponents and concentrate on playing good moves yourself.

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Post #10 Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:31 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
I suggest you stop..]
i'm not in Victor Mollo's class, but i appreciate his sense of humour. See if you can recognise yourself in his list:

Wikipaedia - Victor Mollo wrote:
The books describe entertaining events at a rubber bridge table in "The Griffins Club" (duplicate bridge features only occasionally), involving fictional characters, many of whom are nicknamed after the animals whom they most resemble both physically and psychologically, and who caricature common archetypes of real-life bridge players. Mollo often refers to the main characters by their initials. They include:

Hideous Hog (HH), by far the club's best player, but also an insufferable shark who seeks to humiliate opponents for their mistakes
Rueful Rabbit (RR), a small, timid man who can barely hold his cards together and can't always tell diamonds from hearts, but has such incredible luck that even the cards he accidentally drops (several at once, occasionally) become the right ones
Secretary Bird, who knows the laws of the game perfectly and insists that they are applied to the letter, always to his own downfall
Papa the Greek, a clever but exceedingly vain expert, who fancies himself as the Hog's superior despite regularly losing to him, and whose cleverness usually backfires against himself
Karapet, an Armenian expatriate and a fine player, but the unluckiest one ever, usually Papa's partner
Colin the Corgi, among the club's younger members, a strong player who is often sarcastic and testy and thus has "all the makings of a future master"
Oscar the Owl, Senior Kibitzer at the Griffins, whose role is usually limited to acting as an audience for HH's exploits
Peregrine the Penguin, Oscar's equivalent at the Unicorns, the Griffins' rival club
Walter the Walrus, whose expertise in and devotion to the Work point count are matched only by the utter mess he makes of bidding and play
Molly the Mule, the lone recurring female character, who is always certain that she is right and is as stubborn as the proverbial mule
Timothy the Toucan, as hopeless a player as RR but without RR's engaging qualities. TT tries to make up for his shortcomings by means of an oozing deference to the Menagerie's better players.
Charlie the Chimp would rather post mortem the last hand than play the next. He is an exponent of sharp practice at the table, once famously producing a remarkable (and impossible under normal bridge circumstances) quadruple squeeze against himself by retaining a small card to conceal his own revoke.


To the Go menagerie, i would add Bully, Donkey and Twit (variations of Mollo's characters), plus:

Eddie the Eagle, a late starter with thus no prospect of climbing high, but with a heart as big as an ox, stubbornly refusing to admit defeat.



And - of course! - Princess Alef (who could forget her?!). Alef is a young girl from Mars, stronger than Bully, stronger even than Hog and Peregrine, whose parents are so proud and so protective that they never let her come to the Griffins Club, despite constant invitations from her legions of fans. Alef is a shark, but not a Hideous Hog, as she prefers to win by half a point instead of by as much as possible. Back in the old days, Alef's name used to mean ox, the earthly representative of the Moon Goddess, but Alef shares only one of the earthly ox's qualities: immense power, stronger than a dozen men. In some ways, Alef is the antithesis of Donkey, for Donkey never changes his plan, whereas Alef never has one. Alef is hyperreactive, jumping as high as the sky at every shadow in the mirror.

Ordinarily, Alef's hyperreactivity makes her the most flexible, the most omniscient of all Go boarders, whose plays frequently draw gasps of admiration from her audience. But she has a weak spot: she can't see eyes, so she can't see Sekis. Rarely does she lose to Peregrine, but when she does so, she goes into a flap, reverting to infantile behaviour, just like HAL did when Dave started turning him off.

Alef is confined to quarters, but an army of sycophants have created miniclone dolls of She Who Must Be Obeyed, some of which are so regular and so adept at separating people from their dreams of glory that they could be standard-bearers for All-Bran.
etymonline wrote:
Old English scitan, from Proto-Germanic *skit-, from PIE root *skei- "to cut, split." The notion is of "separation" from the body (compare Latin excernere "to separate," Old English scearn from scieran "to cut, shear;" see sharn). It is thus a cousin to science and conscience.

And then there's Swim. But she is is so non-U* that she was abandoned by her mother at birth, whereupon the Secretary of The Unicorn Club Committee closed the heavily guard-dog guarded doors of their club to her, so she was put in a basket and dumped in the bullrushes of a Euphrates swamp along with another imaginary upstart.
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* almost as non-U as Kate Raworth:


And the vainglorious Grumpy Guppy: a big fish in a small pond who can't swim but thinks he can fly, which he can't, because his tortoise-shell is so thick-headed that his feet are forever stuck in the mud.
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