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Are you the first to find the tesuji?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15501		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Gomoto [ Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Are you the first to find the tesuji?
White to play. There is only one good move for white. Are you the first to find the tesuji?
[Edit: actually there are two good moves for white, my bad ;-)]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Gomoto [ Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Solution

The only move is the tesuji at P6
Author:  Elom [ Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
P6?
Author:  tj86430 [ Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
I have no clue, my instinct says O7
Author:  Caesura [ Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
how about q7? If black extends then o7
Author:  Knotwilg [ Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
p7-q7-p6
Author:  mitsun [ Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
P6 captures the cutting stone. P6-Q7-R6 leads to a squeeze and capture.
(P7-Q7-P6-R6 does not work for W).
Author:  drmwc [ Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
I have been to the pub, so take this with a pinch of salt:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seems to be a ladder.
Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Thanks for participating, the solution and only move is the tesuji at
P6


Continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . 8 O 9 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Ian Butler [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Gomoto wrote:
Thanks for participating, the solution and only move is the tesuji at
P6
.


Could you show us why? I'm still at the 17-18 kyu level so I'd love to see the sequence following it.

My instinct was

to simply turn (and atari) at P8. But I guess P6 also protects the white stone in the lower corner?
Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Thanks for your question, see now continuation add the post above.
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Doesn't drmwc's variation work, too?
Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
answer @kirby: second best variation, but I prefer the P6 tesuji for white instead of R6
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . W . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . 3 2 8 X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 6 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
@Gomoto:
i was talking about q7, not r6
Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Sorry Kirby, but that way we checked an additional variation ;-)

good for black
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Doesn't seem that bad to me - you can just extend from the attachment. But I'm guessing this is from some pro game or commentary, so I'll take your word for it.
Author:  drmwc [ Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
As Kirby has alluded to, showing 1 move is insufficient to convince me that move 2 in these diagrams does refute my solution. A general comment on the position is that White seems to be doing very well territoriality. Hence capturing the cutting stone is a key priority, and there are two ways of doing that. It seems unlikely that either approach lead to a collapse in the corner.

For instance, the sequences below looks good for White. In the first one, for example, white seems to have a solid lead in territory; and black has a weak shape. In the seond one, white again is doing well in territory, and black's wall faces a strong group and is useless.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 6 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Ladder still not broken.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . 8 6 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X 7 5 O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I guess B need to do better than this. The only thing that occurs to me is below, but this looks like a struggle as well. White may have better moves at 5, as well.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 6 2 5 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . 4 O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edited to add: Black's best chance of winning is probably going for a central moyo after doing something in the corner. In that case, white may be better off doing the other capture with 7 in the last diagram, to stop black getting a sente move helping the moyo.
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Kirby wrote:
But I'm guessing this is from some pro game or commentary, so I'll take your word for it.

I don't think this a pro game, given the inefficient placement of some stones. Knowing Gomoto, I think the commentator is probably a strong bot.
Author:  Gomoto [ Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
(good for black)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 6 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 8 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 0 . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Gomoto [ Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Quote:
Uberdude: I don't think this a pro game, given the inefficient placement of some stones. Knowing Gomoto, I think the commentator is probably a strong bot.


When reviewing my own games (I review each of them) or studying go I always use a combination of pro go databases and strong AI to analyze the moves.

In this case ("Are you the first to find the tesuji") my main motivation is to improve my own tesuji knowledge. I start with a tesuji idea (e.g. from a book) and search for an application in real games (perhaps I missed the tesuji in one of my own games or I search for the tesuji in my pro database). I used a pro game as a starting point for this problem, but I tortured the kifu heavily to achieve two secondary goals: I had to change the global position to make sure the local tesuji is the biggest move, and nurturing the autistic part of my personality i also wanted an about even score for the problem position.

I enjoy studying tesuji this way because when applying tesuji to my own games I have to make sure not to just play blindly the local good move, but also be always aware of the whole board relations.

I posted this byproduct of my own tesuji studying, because I thought some of you might enjoy to look for the tesuji too and because I enjoy to discuss about go with you (by comparing variations mainly).
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