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L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
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Author:  Magicwand [ Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
NOW IT IS 4K ~ 1K LEVEL PROBLEM.

edit: BLACK TO FIND THE BEST RESULT.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
Author:  quantumf [ Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
Author:  Cassandra [ Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
quantumf wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

I don't think so.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B 2 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 B 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

EDIT: If the task would have been (as it originally was) to save both marked stones, not only one (with :b3: at :b5: ).
Author:  Magicwand [ Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Cassandra wrote:
quantumf wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

I don't think so.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B 2 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 B 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Task is to save both marked stones, not only one (with :b3: at :b5: ).

HUM...i am just copying the question from the website..
i dont think you can save both stone if white really try to catch one.
i guess i should change the problem to find the best result.
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Cassandra wrote:
I don't think so.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B 2 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 B 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Connecting at :b3: doesn't work so well. There is no reason to try to save the one stone becuase the white stones cannot be capture. Try :b4: instea of :b3: .
Author:  Cassandra [ Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
DrStraw wrote:
Connecting at :b3: doesn't work so well. There is no reason to try to save the one stone becuase the white stones cannot be capture. Try :b4: instea of :b3: .

As already written, I would play :b3: at :b5: .
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Cassandra wrote:
As already written, I would play :b3: at :b5: .


But that is not as good. A W stone at M5 instead of a B one prevents B from encroaching any further into the corner.
Author:  Cassandra [ Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
DrStraw wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
As already written, I would play :b3: at :b5: .


But that is not as good. A W stone at M5 instead of a B one prevents B from encroaching any further into the corner.

:w4: at M5 will be captured.
Author:  joppon [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
If Black plays at L6, I cannot see how white can live.
In this variation the marked stones both live. I think. :)
Author:  illluck [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
@joppon: How do you plan to answer white M7?
Author:  nagano [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 4 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

I believe this is the correct answer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X 2 1 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 X 4 6 |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 8 5 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Continuation
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X 1 2 |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . 3 O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Black is captured.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 X 4 6 |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 7 5 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Continuation
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . 6 2 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X O X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O 3 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Same result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X 3 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

If white plays like this, it turns out basically the same as the last two sequences did for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . 7 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 2 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 8 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

White wins.
Author:  joppon [ Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
After further and proper consideration, I now believe that both of the marked stones cannot be saved.
Author:  cyclops [ Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
joppon wrote:
After further and proper consideration, I now believe that both of the marked stones cannot be saved.

Just a try:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ , . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . 3 . |
$$ , . X O O 2 0 |
$$ . . O X 1 5 6 |
$$ . . O . X 4 8 |
$$ , O . , a 7 9 |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

edit: black a next
Author:  cyclops [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
other variants:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 2@a
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . 6 3 5 |
$$ . . X O O a 9 |
$$ . . O X X 1 7 |
$$ . . O . X 0 . |
$$ . O . , . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . 2 . |
$$ . . X O O 1 4 |
$$ . . O X X 6 8 |
$$ . . O 7 X 5 . |
$$ . O . , 3 . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X 0 . 2 9 |
$$ . . X O O 1 . |
$$ . . O X X 3 7 |
$$ . . O . X 4 8 |
$$ . O . , . 5 . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . 2 . |
$$ . . X O O 1 4 |
$$ . . O X X 5 . |
$$ . . O . X 6 . |
$$ . O . , 3 7 . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]


But maybe, after further and proper consideration, the refutation is in W3 below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . 2 . |
$$ . . X O O 1 . |
$$ . . O X X . . |
$$ . . O . X . 3 |
$$ . O . , . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
i started this thread so i will end it :)
how about below?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . 2 . |
$$ . . X O O 1 7 |
$$ . . O X X 4 5 |
$$ . . O . X 8 6 |
$$ . O . , 9 3 . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]



below is correct variation for this shape
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . X O O 1 . |
$$ . . O X 2 3 . |
$$ . . O 4 X . . |
$$ . O . , . 5 . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]
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