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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #21 Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 11:18 pm 
Judan

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Can you find the perfect move for White to reinforce his moyo?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Shin Jinseo did,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yeah, this one is not so wacky, but I was impressed Shin hit the sweet spot. Reminds me of a move of Yoda from 3-4 shimari we discussed a while back.

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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #22 Posted: Sun May 10, 2020 11:31 pm 
Lives in gote

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I would strongly consider N4

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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #23 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 12:42 am 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
Can you find the perfect move for White to reinforce his moyo?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Shin Jinseo did,


I confidently answered no. ;)

But then I did, too. :D Old dogs, new tricks, folks. It's not too late for the human race. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #24 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 12:55 am 
Judan

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gennan:
I don't like n4 much because:
1) Too close to thick white bottom left group
2) Doesn't actually make the lower right corner white, e.g. still 3-3 or 3-4 attach, so if playing a move on lower side I'd prefer p3 or o3 for real cash
3) Doesn't help mitigate black's q7 shoulder hit aim.

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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #25 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 1:39 am 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
Here's a nice example of a "kakoi" surrounding move (as JF likes to mention) a pro* (black) should have made playing BenseonDarr on Fox, but didn't so got reduced and fell behind. White has just cut at 1, and black sacrificed the left 3 stones to build the top centre.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X 1 2 . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seeing as black lost a lot on the left, he should actually consolidate his gains on the top with this kakoi move, as often the case a large knight move from a boundary stone. This would give black 42%. Even fancier black could attach at k4 first to make some kikashi and then kakoi.


Having answered no to the next question, I spent my time revisiting this one. Lately I have been looking at center play in the Elf commentaries, which has reinforced how little I understand. ;) But neither do the pros, even players like Takemiya with a lot of experience with center play. The main reason, I suspect, is that we just don't evaluate the center and moyos very well. I think Shusaku is undersung in this regard, as he was overshadowed by Go Seigen.

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X O X . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With komi, I think that humans understand that Black is trailing. The question is how to catch up? The question is not just technical, but, for humans, psychological. Since the bots try to increase their chance of winning, against a similar opponent against which they have played millions of games, I think that the psychological metaphor is applicable to their play, too. Against such an opponent, what offers the best chance to catch up? Against a human peer, I suspect that the best chance is in the bottom left corner. :b8: does not press enough.

In a no komi game, however, the kakoi looks a lot more reasonable. It's a play that Dosaku may well have found in the 17th century, despite the unfamiliarity of the position. As well as some players in the 17th century and later. :)

Quote:
Instead black tenukid, and BensonDarr made some exchanges then reduced at the k14 sweet spot. LZ 203 would have just played k14 directly (because s8 was a slack answer to s7, thinks black can resist with q8 to avoid giving the sente moves from centre and can deal with s8 bad aji). Black was down to 36% now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X 7 6 . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X O X . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 0 . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 9 . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 8 . |
$$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black obediently (-1.5%) answered the reducing move (resist with k13 attachment a little better, then a fight and sabaki), white jumped back and black attacked the shape at f3 (making sense of d2 choice over c2). However, white ignored (how it then settled the wall after black f5 jump was nice) and snipped off the h13 stone and black was down to 31%. What had started out with potential to be a large territory to the 8th line plus outward influence has been cut down to the 4th line, and white got strong (not sure I would say thick) in the centre to boot. All because of failing to play kakoi.


FWIW:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X O X . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My feeling is to play :b8: - :b10:. The descent to a is another possibility. In the actual game, Black tried to have it both ways, playing the atari at :b8: to prevent White's extension there, and then going for a bit extra in the corner with the hane-and-connect. That my well be an overplay, but against fellow humans it may offer the best practical chance of catching up. :)

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X X O . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X O X . 5 1 . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . 4 . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 6 . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . 3 . . . O . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that the peep at :b20: was Black's aim, accepting mutual destruction. Yes, Black's play seems to have been objectively mistaken, but it still may offer the best chances against a fellow human opponent. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #26 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 3:57 am 
Oza

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Re kakoi and psychology:

I was looking for a book yesterday and just happened to come across the manga Hoshizora no Karasu. I flipped through the first few pages to refresh my memory, and of course came across my alter ego, the grumpy old grandpa pro who just does want to baby-sit little Waka - 'ttaku washi wa gaki no o-mamori nazo shitake nee ga). But he does so by teaching her how to be play go to pro level. But in the robust but subtle way of times of yore - no snowflakes allowed here! On the one hand he lets her help by finding the black moves (the ones hard to read) on a game record he wants to play over, while on the other he bellows at her at the little brat (gaki): "Koko washi no jinchi, kokorahen mo wasi no" - this is MY territory, and all this around here too!

But what really caught my eye (obviously because the skilled manga artist so designed the page) was Waka telling grandpa she understood one important piece of advice: Always only play moves that have an effect on your opponent.

In a way that's trite advice, so obvious that ... Well, so obvious that we keep ignoring it.

But we also ignore it in two different ways. One is just plain forgetting it. The other is more subtle - we are aware of it but deliberately override it. This comes up a lot with prophylactic moves, of which kakoi is one.

There is a nexus of such moves. It includes, in what may be regarded as an ascending scale, mamori (not baby-sitting here but with interesting associations, and at least the easiest to understand), honte, and kakoi - the hardest to understand.

Honte is somewhere in the middle in that it's not too hard to understand, but at the same time it's not too hard either to make a mess of it. Hane Naoki recently wrote a book about honte in which he castigated the "fake honte". This is a safe, solid move that actually doesn't have any effect on the opponent. It is a showboating, grandstanding, or as the ancient Chinese masters would say, a move that looks full but is empty.

One reason that kakoi is so hard is that it is difficult to play it in such a way that it has an effect on the opponent. And this is actually hard even for top pros. Here's a famous example with some AI insight.

In 2011 (i.e. pre AI times) Iyama played the triangle move below. It caused a bit of a sensation at the time as it was a title match and the analysis team in the press room were astounded by it. It was dubbed an "Ear reddening move of the Modern Era".



In Iyama's game, he played the triangled stone to force A and then he surrounded at B.

This same position was recently put to a group of pros. None of them got Iyama's move, but a couple of stronger pros (e.g. an 8-dan) got a similar idea - a move in the same area but not s effective, e.g. G).

Weaker pros such as little Sumire and Ueno Asami opted for E, and in Sumire's case this was combined with an aim at I. Another young pro suggested F with a similar idea. We are talking about moves here that DO have an effect on the opponent, but maybe we should say "impact" rather than "effect" - the effect is too blatant, in a way. Iyama's way was more subtle. H was another youngster's unsubtle choice.

The strongest player, Yuki Satoshi 9-dan, chose the subtlest way: C, expecting White to defend at the triangled point, and then D - surrounding on a truly large scale in which the future effect on the opponent is actually rather hard to see.

But we can assume there was an impact, because modern AI analysis points that way.

I didn't spend much time on it, but LeelaZero naturally liked the 3-3 point in the lower left. Apart from being a stylistic quirk this can be seen as an extemporising move - at some point attention has to revert to the top of the board. And even at this stage, LZ did rate moves in that area highly.

It liked B and C very much. But it also had a soft spot for Iyama's move. The more time it spent analysing, the more time it spent on that move. It did not move up enough to become the "decision move" in the time I spent on it, but it was very much a strong candidate move. None of the moves the younger pros put forward appeared in LZ's list of candidates. Of course the 9-dan, Yuki, was vindicated, too.

Let us switch now to psychology.

I think we can sum up the AI-human dichotomy as follows:

* The bot says "I want to choose the move that gives me the best winning ratio, full stop."
* The human says "I want to choose the move that gives me the best winning ratio, but which is also a move that I can understand."

In other words, my interpretation is that the human is willing to sacrifice some hidden subtlety in return for keeping some sort of grip on the game. But Iyama (and Yuki) saw deeper than younger pros and didn't have to sacrifice quite as much subtlety as them.

Reverting to kakoi, I think one reason it is so hard a concept is that it is hard to find out where its hidden subtlety lies. In part, I believe, this is because people tend to think about the present and the future more than the past. They look at a kakoi move (or any move, come to that) and say, "What effect does it have now?" or, if you are a pro, "What effect could this have in the future?"

Both questions are valid, but there is a third aspect, which, it seems to me, even pros ignore. "What effect will the stones I have already played have if I don't play this kakoi?" In other words, you have to protect what you have already invested. As I have repeated ad nauseam in the past, thickness is only thickness if you can use it as thickness. And the bots have shown us, via the Direct 3-3, that joseki thickness is often not true thickness. If you can attack it, with guerilla tactics, or like a pack of wolves, soon enough, it ends up as a pile of skeletons.

If I may go off on a bit of a tangent now, and pick up on mamori - again not the baby-sitting variety. Its commonest use is as a prophylactic defence of the corner. By chance, I just read this morning an article by Shibano Toramaru in which he explains why the tsukeosae joseki has gone right out of fashion in the AI era. He doesn't use the word mamori, but I think we can see this joseki as having an effect similar to a mamori move (that is the point of the osae block, after all). However, one reason the mamori is so easy to understand (and play) is that its effect is easy to understand: it affects the corner and not (or hardly) the opponent. That is why it is at the bottom of the prophylaxis nexus. Shibano's explanation is that the joseki is bad precisely because it doesn't have enough effect on the opponent.

So, in a nutshell, we come back to what grandpa says: "Always only play moves that have an effect on your opponent." Add subtlety for seasoning depending how many Michelin stars you want to win.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, SoDesuNe, Uberdude
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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #27 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 4:38 am 
Oza
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Uberdude wrote:
Can you find the perfect move for White to reinforce his moyo?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Shin Jinseo did,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yeah, this one is not so wacky, but I was impressed Shin hit the sweet spot. Reminds me of a move of Yoda from 3-4 shimari we discussed a while back.


Katago 1.4.1 with the newest 40-block at 800K playouts...
Blue is O7, one space to the right of Shin's choice.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #28 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 8:31 am 
Honinbo

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John Fairbairn wrote:
In 2011 (i.e. pre AI times) Iyama played the triangle move below. It caused a bit of a sensation at the time as it was a title match and the analysis team in the press room were astounded by it. It was dubbed an "Ear reddening move of the Modern Era".



In Iyama's game, he played the triangled stone to force A and then he surrounded at B.

This same position was recently put to a group of pros. None of them got Iyama's move, but a couple of stronger pros (e.g. an 8-dan) got a similar idea - a move in the same area but not s effective, e.g. G).


The game record in the GoGoD database shows Iyama playing at G. I suppose that is a typo in the database. (?)

Quote:
I didn't spend much time on it, but LeelaZero naturally liked the 3-3 point in the lower left. Apart from being a stylistic quirk this can be seen as an extemporising move - at some point attention has to revert to the top of the board. And even at this stage, LZ did rate moves in that area highly.

It liked B and C very much. But it also had a soft spot for Iyama's move. The more time it spent analysing, the more time it spent on that move. It did not move up enough to become the "decision move" in the time I spent on it, but it was very much a strong candidate move.


Elf in 2018 also chose the 3-3 invasion, with 94.6k rollouts; B was next, with 76.0k rollouts, and C was third, with only 1.6k rollouts. B and C are within Elf's margin of error, I believe. No other candidate got as many os 1.5k rollouts, and so did not show up in the commentary. Elf thought G, which is what it thought Iyama played, lost 13% by comparison with the invasion, making it a definite error.

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Post #29 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 8:49 am 
Judan

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ez4u, yes, one to the right was a promising winrate move and when I gave my LZ more than a few thousand playouts it became #1 too.

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Post #30 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 9:09 am 
Oza

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Quote:
The game record in the GoGoD database shows Iyama playing at G. I suppose that is a typo in the database. (?)


No, it was my error here. Sorry. I got misled by the triangled point also being marked in the Japanese article because they were commenting that Iyama showed his genius by not making the obvious cap there.

Compounding my error. the player who I said chose G (Yu Zhengqi) did in fact choose the same move (G) as Iyama.

For the record, two pros chose Direct 3-3, but Hirata Tomoya (one of them) called it a probe, and after a couple of shimmy moves vaguely hinting at a ko, he said he would then switch back to the top side at B. (Kyo Kagen was the other 3-3 player).

Assuming the designation of 3-3 as a probe stands up (and I have seen that several times in other such positions; plus I assume Hirata had AI support for his variation)), I do find it hard to believe that omitting a probe really makes such a HUGE difference, in this sort of position, as Elf claims.

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Post #31 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 10:17 am 
Honinbo

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
The game record in the GoGoD database shows Iyama playing at G. I suppose that is a typo in the database. (?)


No, it was my error here. Sorry. I got misled by the triangled point also being marked in the Japanese article because they were commenting that Iyama showed his genius by not making the obvious cap there.


OK, thanks. :)

Quote:
For the record, two pros chose Direct 3-3, but Hirata Tomoya (one of them) called it a probe, and after a couple of shimmy moves vaguely hinting at a ko, he said he would then switch back to the top side at B. (Kyo Kagen was the other 3-3 player).

Assuming the designation of 3-3 as a probe stands up (and I have seen that several times in other such positions; plus I assume Hirata had AI support for his variation)), I do find it hard to believe that omitting a probe really makes such a HUGE difference, in this sort of position, as Elf claims.


Well, Elf did not claim a huge difference between the bottom left invasion and B, It was G that it did not like. B is certainly playable, by Elf's reckoning. :) As for whether the invasion is a probe, here is Elf's main line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Elf's main line
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 5 . . . 8 . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 4 , 9 . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :b45: the rollouts drop below 10k. This is not an easy sequence for me to understand. :b39: at 40 is also playable, which definitely makes :b37: look like a probe, but this sequence, and the fact that it's a close call for :b37: between the invasion and 40, makes me think that is just a case of both the top side and the bottom left corner being of approximately equal value at that point. Quien sabe?

Edit: BTW, ;w42: at a is also playable. :D

Here is Elf's main line when Black plays on the top side

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Elf's variation 2, after :bc:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . B , . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 O . O . . . O . . . . . O 8 . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit2: As Elf regards :b37: as an error, here is its mainline reply

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Elf's main line reply to :bc:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 9 . . . . . . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 1 8 . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . B . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w38: occupies the top side. After :b39: - :b43: White bolsters his top right group. Then after :b47: White plays the 3d line attachment for sabaki.

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Post #32 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 1:28 pm 
Judan

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I'm guessing this was the move order prior to Iyama's cap(ish)?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If Iyama's move was good, should white have not played the pincer, but raised a flag around there himself? That would be centre before side though, so presumably black would approach at 3. Nipping the potential of that big black wall in the bud is surely valuable too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 2 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #33 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 2:17 pm 
Oza

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Quote:
I'm guessing this was the move order prior to Iyama's cap(ish)?


No. These moves were 13-14 very early in the fuseki.

The commentary suggests that Iyama's high cap threatened a devastating kosumi at P9, which compelled Cho U to be patient and join up at R10. That in turn allowed Iyama to play J16, and so the battle lines were fixed.

Strictly, J16 was not a kakoi move but a kamae (construction) move, but it's a waste of time trying to discuss such gradations on L19, I find, so I opt for simplification.

The game ended on move 199, with Iyama killing a big group in the upper right, and so they never got round to playing in the lower left.

Despite the fact that Iyama's ear-reddening move captured the imagination, and despite the fact that he won, I don't think this was regarded as a masterpiece game by him. If you want to look it up (Game 2 of the 2011 Judan), the critical move of the game was said to be White 82, which set in train a board-enveloping capturing race. I suspect a bot would find few moves to praise there. But, on the other hand, I further suspect that Hirata, who is an avid student of AI, found the centre play exemplified by Iyama's high cap struck some sort of chord with the way computers handle centre thickness. Beyond that, we are in realms above my pay grade.

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Post #34 Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 3:31 pm 
Honinbo

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Sorry for not giving the GoGoD SGF title. It's 2011-03-24b. Iyama Yuta (B) vs. Cho U.

Actually Black's play on the right side occurred much earlier.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Black occupies the right side
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X 3 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . b 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b13: occupies (extends) on the right side. Elf prefers :b15: — get this!— by 11½% (29.7K rollouts). Who, at that time, woulda thunk such a thing? :shock: I still have difficulty believing it.

:w14: returns the favor, losing 10% (21.9K rollouts) to, of all plays, a. :shock: Then :b15: - White b, and then Black c - White d. It's a different world, isn't it?

:w16: loses only 4% to par, according to Elf, which puts it just within Elf's margin of error, I think.

:b17: is also Elf's top choice. :)

----

As for :w82:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X X O . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . X O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X O . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . O O . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . X O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . 1 X . X X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . a . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf's top choice is a, while :w82: is barely on its radar with only 89 rollouts. However, in retrospect it thinks that :w82: is 1% better than a.

White's blunder, says Elf, came earlier at :w66:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm66 White blunder
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X X 9 8 X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . X O . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X O . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 2 . O 7 . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 . 6 3 . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . 4 . X X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 0 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Each move from :b67: to :b75: are Elf's top choice except :b73:, which Elf prefers in retrospect.

Here is Elf's mainline for :w66:. Explaining why it is better is above my paygrade. ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67 Elf's top choice for :w66: is :wc:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X X . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . X O . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 X O O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . 2 X O . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . W 4 O . . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 . 6 . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X 8 5 . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 Elf's main line for :w66:, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X X . . X 4 O O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . X . X O . O 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O O . . . X 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O X O . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O O O . . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X O X . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 1 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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— Winona Adkins

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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #35 Posted: Tue May 12, 2020 12:45 am 
Oza

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I mentioned above that Shibano has revisited the popular tsukeosae joseki in the light of AI, and has concluded that it is lacking in efficiency. I summarised his thinking by using the word mamori (which he did not) because the effect of the osae block is like mamori and the weakness of mamori is that its effect is only on the corner (prophylactic defence) and not on the opponent.

In his latest revelation, he essentially confirms that, and does use the word 'mamori'. He discusses the position below under the heading "It is wrong to think about just mamori".



Black has just made the check (tsume) of the triangled stone. Readers of my Genjo-Chitoku and Shuei's Games will know by now that, along with probes, in high-class commentaries a tusme is almost the shibboleth of a very strong pro. Weaker pros, and amateurs more so, tend to under-tsume and under-probe. But what is less obvious from those commentaries is how to answer a tsume.

In the present case, the traditional moves have been A, B or C. They are all wanting, according to Shibano.

A is bad aji (a move at 3-3 remains). B allows Black a variety of forcing moves, and the relationship of the triangled stone and B is such that White will have been forced.

C is probably the strongest move, so that if Black tries to force at D, White can respond energetically at E. However, it lacks impact on the triangled stone (though that is mitigated if Black foolishly makes the D-E force).

But those moves have fallen out of favour. F is now more popular he says. Note he doesn't actually say 'better' - just 'more popular'. One reason is that, while it does still leave bad aji at the 3-3 point, if Black plays there (and, yes, he can live, the resulting shape on the outside will be such that White's stones will be in contact with the triangled stone, thus making that a very bad move.

Another reason is that if Black goes for forcing moves on the outside instead of the inside aji, White's resulting shape when he answers is much stronger (which again means weakening the triangled stone. One thing I love about Shibano is how elegantly and lucidly he can explain his points, and in this case he does so with splendid tewari example. He postulates Black invading at 3-3 instead of the tsume. That way Black gets a bigger corner and doesn't have a damaged stone on the outside, compared with tsume then 3-3.

He adds that G is also becoming popular (leading to a tsukenobi shape). He argues that the resulting patterns are even - which is a step up for White from the unsatisfactory purely mamori moves A, B and C.

I think it may be worth adding that, both in this case and previous cases, whenever Shibano talks about a move being popular, such remarks are not necessarily borne out by a database inspection. He is referring to what he sees on the internet. Much of that has to be deemed both experimental and "trending". Caveat lector.

Edit: Typo corrected as per jlt


Last edited by John Fairbairn on Tue May 12, 2020 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #36 Posted: Tue May 12, 2020 1:02 am 
Gosei
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John Fairbairn wrote:
if Black goes for forcing moves on the outside inside of the inside aji


I don't understand the meaning of this sentence. Is there a typo?

Edit: the typo has been corrected.

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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #37 Posted: Tue May 12, 2020 8:28 am 
Honinbo

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Aleister Crowley position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Do what thou wilt.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 a . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . 2 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The position after :b13: appears in Waltheri 5 times in 2018 and 2019, 3 times with :w14:. The letters show Elf's top 7 choices, a high number for the Elf comentary to show, as it does not show options that get fewer than 1500 rollouts. We have

a 29.2k rollouts
b 29.1k rollouts
c 7.8k rollouts (This one makes me cringe, BTW. ;))
d 5.9k rollouts
e 4.9k rollouts
f 2.8k rollouts
g 2.3k rollouts

All of these are playable, IMO, because each of their winrate estimates lies within 2% of that for a. (I reckon Elf's margin of error to be around 4½%, but 2% is close for any top bot.) :w14: is also playble, with a winrate estimate within 2½%. :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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 Post subject: Re: Wacky centre move training from bots.
Post #38 Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:05 am 
Judan

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Clicking through Ke Jie's game today in the Chinese league, I was impressed that he hit the blue spot here, not totally wacky, but not on my radar.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . O . O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . , . O O X X O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O . O X . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X X X X O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . X O X O O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . X O . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . X X O O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . O . O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . , . O O X X O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O . O X . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X X X X O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . X O X O O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . X O . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . X X O O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Makes sense when you see it as a somewhat sideways rather than capping attack on black's 2 stones, simultanesously growing the top side, helping take care of f16 aji and reaching out a helping hand to the weakish white group on lower side

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