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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: This not Joseki! Even if they tell you :-)
Post #1 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:32 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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Lets have a look at this pseudo joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ , . . . Z X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Last edited by Gomoto on Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: This not Joseki! Even if they tell you :-)
Post #2 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:38 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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This is still a game:

Attachment:
nojoseki2.jpg
nojoseki2.jpg [ 173.2 KiB | Viewed 5377 times ]


Yamada Takuji 8p - Kobayashi Koichi 9p, W+0.5 (Komi 6.5)
71st Japanese Honinbo, preliminary, 2015-05-14
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: This not Joseki! Even if they tell you :-)
Post #3 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:41 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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But not anymore after this "Joseki" move:

Attachment:
nojoseki2b.jpg
nojoseki2b.jpg [ 173.48 KiB | Viewed 5377 times ]


Although white continues to play and wins the game anyhow ;-)

(winrates ELF by the way)


Last edited by Gomoto on Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: This not Joseki! Even if they tell you :-)
Post #4 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:49 pm 
Gosei

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It is very important not to connect!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . O b O . . . . |
$$ . . a X O X O O . . |
$$ , . . . X X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


a is much better than b

(but even if you have to connect at b due to ko threats (Please show me a pro game example where b is the better move, thank you in advance) this is still better for white)
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: This not Joseki! Even if they tell you :-)
Post #5 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:55 pm 
Gosei

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But even with ko threats not in your favour, you can consider this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ . O . O X O . . . . |
$$ . . O X . X O O . . |
$$ , . . . X X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: This not Joseki! Even if they tell you :-)
Post #6 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:57 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ . O . O . O X . . . |
$$ . . O X O X O O . . |
$$ , . . . X X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ . . O . O X O O . . |
$$ , . . O X X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: This not Joseki! Even if they tell you :-)
Post #7 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:17 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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One more pro game example:

Attachment:
nojoseki2c.jpg
nojoseki2c.jpg [ 176.45 KiB | Viewed 5358 times ]


Yokota Shigeaki 9p - Morita Michihiro 9p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5)
18th Japanese Ryusei, group stage, 2008-11-17
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: This not Joseki! Even if they tell you :-)
Post #8 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:19 pm 
Gosei

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White connected (and looses the game):

Attachment:
nojeski2d.jpg
nojeski2d.jpg [ 177.84 KiB | Viewed 5357 times ]

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: This not Joseki! Even if they tell you :-)
Post #9 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:12 am 
Judan

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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Related shape from AlphaGo vs pro team, it's better to fight and lose ko (and get 4 moves elsewhere) than connect. http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... /3/move/88

This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Gomoto
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: This not Joseki! Even if they tell you :-)
Post #10 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:30 am 
Gosei

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Thanks for the link to the very interesting game and shape.
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