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 Post subject: Re: status
Post #21 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:35 am 
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Araban wrote:
I never claimed Black kills, simply that White cannot live unconditionally. Thus, seki and (desperate) kos count. The continuation I had in mind was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 . 5 4 . . . .
$$|. . . . . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Sorry, I expressed my self poorly. When I said "kills" I meant "prohibits white from living unconditionally".

So: how does this continue?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 . 5 4 . . . .
$$|. . . 6 . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Post #22 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:14 am 
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tj86430 wrote:
Araban wrote:
I never claimed Black kills, simply that White cannot live unconditionally. Thus, seki and (desperate) kos count. The continuation I had in mind was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 . 5 4 . . . .
$$|. . . . . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Sorry, I expressed my self poorly. When I said "kills" I meant "prohibits white from living unconditionally".

So: how does this continue?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 . 5 4 . . . .
$$|. . . 6 . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]

What I had in mind:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 7 5 4 . . . .
$$|9 8 . 6 . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Post #23 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:24 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 1 7 5 4 . . . .
$$|8 . 6 . . 2 3 . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]


Araban, seki == unconditional life! Continuing from your previous diagramme, I don't see how black can make ko or kill. Unless I'm missing something, white lives in seki, and if this is the only thing black can do, the status of the original group would be "alive as it stands".

In fact, I wonder which is better endgame for black: making this seki or forcing white to live small by playing the hane/connect in the original position.

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Post #24 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:45 am 
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I thought seki counts as living unconditionally? To exclude seki I would think you need to say "white lives with territory".

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Post #25 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:14 am 
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willemien wrote:
thanks for all the answers. :bow:

I think it is a good shape for the Corner shapes page.

I always intended that page as a collection of different corner shapes that are just not territory. :grumpy:

and this is a rather simple ahape ( no cutting points or so)
and also it is one of the biggest shapes that is still not territory.


How about a page uncommon corner shapes? (I took the corner shapes to mean common corner shapes, it seems.) :geek:

Reasoning:
I still remember a certain 19k on IGS, when we played it was one of my first ten games there. Encouraged by his win, he gave me a long lecture after the game about the power of the sanrensei opening and other book knowledge. I fear that people may be inclined to learn the outcomes of the staircase ten as if they were as important as understanding the tripod group. As we see from Herman being 4 dan, the staircase ten isn't so important after all. :D Simply adding a phrase to that end, will do the trick I guess.

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Post #26 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:34 am 
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tapir wrote:
willemien wrote:
thanks for all the answers. :bow:

I think it is a good shape for the Corner shapes page.

I always intended that page as a collection of different corner shapes that are just not territory. :grumpy:

and this is a rather simple ahape ( no cutting points or so)
and also it is one of the biggest shapes that is still not territory.


How about a page uncommon corner shapes? (I took the corner shapes to mean common corner shapes, it seems.) :geek:

Reasoning:
I still remember a certain 19k on IGS, when we played it was one of my first ten games there. Encouraged by his win, he gave me a long lecture after the game about the power of the sanrensei opening and other book knowledge. I fear that people may be inclined to learn the outcomes of the staircase ten as if they were as important as understanding the tripod group. As we see from Herman being 4 dan, the staircase ten isn't so important after all. :D Simply adding a phrase to that end, will do the trick I guess.


At the moment CornerShapes consist of "only" 33 different corner shapes on the page.

And they are all (i think) easely accessable from the table of contents.
(the page is nothing more than a list of diagrams (one per shape) a bit of text and a link to a more specialized page)

It was always my intention to also to include positions that were bordering between "alive with territory" and "alive in seki" . (because that was a detail that I missed in other books)


(And so that readers of sensei's have sometimes the joy of turning an "alive with territory" corner into an "alive in seki" corner ) :o :cool:

If you really like you can make a page of common corner shapes and if you like i can give you a hand (It is not that difficult just copy and paste the whole page, remove the uncommen shapes, and that is it)
I think the biggest problem is deciding what is common and not and maybe finding pages that you want to link your new page )
success :clap:

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Post #27 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:40 am 
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Hmm, yeah I don't know why I was thinking seki shouldn't count as unconditional life for W :scratch:. In that case, the situation is much different. I guess there's something unsatisfying about a group that lives without points.

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Post #28 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:06 am 
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willemien wrote:
tapir wrote:
willemien wrote:
thanks for all the answers. :bow:

I think it is a good shape for the Corner shapes page.

I always intended that page as a collection of different corner shapes that are just not territory. :grumpy:

and this is a rather simple ahape ( no cutting points or so)
and also it is one of the biggest shapes that is still not territory.


How about a page uncommon corner shapes? (I took the corner shapes to mean common corner shapes, it seems.) :geek:

Reasoning:
I still remember a certain 19k on IGS, when we played it was one of my first ten games there. Encouraged by his win, he gave me a long lecture after the game about the power of the sanrensei opening and other book knowledge. I fear that people may be inclined to learn the outcomes of the staircase ten as if they were as important as understanding the tripod group. As we see from Herman being 4 dan, the staircase ten isn't so important after all. :D Simply adding a phrase to that end, will do the trick I guess.


At the moment CornerShapes consist of "only" 33 different corner shapes on the page.

And they are all (i think) easely accessable from the table of contents.
(the page is nothing more than a list of diagrams (one per shape) a bit of text and a link to a more specialized page)

It was always my intention to also to include positions that were bordering between "alive with territory" and "alive in seki" . (because that was a detail that I missed in other books)


(And so that readers of sensei's have sometimes the joy of turning an "alive with territory" corner into an "alive in seki" corner ) :o :cool:

If you really like you can make a page of common corner shapes and if you like i can give you a hand (It is not that difficult just copy and paste the whole page, remove the uncommen shapes, and that is it)
I think the biggest problem is deciding what is common and not and maybe finding pages that you want to link your new page )
success :clap:


So where do you stop listing? There are literally thousands of "corner shapes", e.g:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . O . X . . . .
$$ | O . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


List or not?

Or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X X O .
$$ | . . O X O O . O
$$ | . X X O . . . .
$$ | . X O . O . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]


List or not?

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Post #29 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:52 am 
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I would not list any of them

But that is mostly because in the first example White is dead and better abandoned (as far as i can see)

The second I would not list it because there is already a white stone inside Blacks area.

Also Black is alive (with territory)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +----------------
$$ | 8 4 6 . . 7. . .
$$ | 5 1 2 X X X O .
$$ | 0 3 O X O O . O
$$ | . X X O . . . .
$$ | . X O . O . . .
$$ | 9 X O . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]


But if you really want I won't stop you.

But if you have really add a lot of them i would make a seperate page of "Other open formations "

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Post #30 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:03 pm 
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As promised, I looked at my copy of 'Go Proverbs Illustrated'. :study: The part on five stone in a row on the third line in a corner is, alas, only one page.

It has two diagrams:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 4 . . . . . . .
$$|. . . 2 1 3 . . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]


..and:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . 2 1 3 . . .
$$|. O O O O O X . . .
$$|4 X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . .[/go]


And it has a few small paragraphs explaining how they live.

It does not discuss the possibility of the attacker starting with the 1-2 point.


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Post #31 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:07 pm 
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willemien wrote:
I would not list any of them

But that is mostly because in the first example White is dead and better abandoned (as far as i can see)

The second I would not list it because there is already a white stone inside Blacks area.

Also Black is alive (with territory)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +----------------
$$ | 8 4 6 . . 7. . .
$$ | 5 1 2 X X X O .
$$ | 0 3 O X O O . O
$$ | . X X O . . . .
$$ | . X O . O . . .
$$ | 9 X O . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]


But if you really want I won't stop you.

But if you have really add a lot of them i would make a seperate page of "Other open formations "


My point wasn't about these specific formations, my point was that you have to draw the line somewhere.

Again, there are literally thousands of corner shapes. Closed formations, open formations, formations with and without defects (such as cutting points), with and without outside liberties, with and without hane/descent on the outside/inside. The only reasonable criterion for inclusion, IMO, is whether it is a common shape. Whether it is useful for player to know their status.

It is useful for players to know that the L-shape is dead, that the hovercraft shape can be attacked with a descent, that the choice between the J-group and the straight J-group exists, and leads to ko, and that hanes on the first line matter to many corner shapes. Because they will encounter them in games regularly.

It is not useful for player to know the status of the staircase ten, because they will not encounter it in games. The staircase ten is interesting as a reading exercise, as a tsumego. But it provides no benefit to learn its status anymore than learning that of the above two examples does (both of which are existing tsumego).


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Post #32 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:14 pm 
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Quote:
It is not useful for player to know the status of the staircase ten, because they will not encounter it in games. The staircase ten is interesting as a reading exercise, as a tsumego. But it provides no benefit to learn its status anymore than learning that of the above two examples does (both of which are existing tsumego).


I guess you will find it unbelievable but I did encounter this shape in actual play.

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Post #33 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:29 pm 
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willemien wrote:
Quote:
It is not useful for player to know the status of the staircase ten, because they will not encounter it in games. The staircase ten is interesting as a reading exercise, as a tsumego. But it provides no benefit to learn its status anymore than learning that of the above two examples does (both of which are existing tsumego).


I guess you will find it unbelievable but I did encounter this shape in actual play.


I do not find it unbelievable, it is certainly possible for such a shape to happen. And the same is true for the thousand other shapes I mentioned. With the millions of games being played each day at all sorts of playing levels, the most unlikely groups will appear on the board.

But it isn't common. It is not the result of known joseki or invasion. There is no point in learning by heart the status of this shape, or any of the other thousand, because it is exceedingly unlikely that you will need that knowledge.

Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape, and not the other thousands of shapes that are equally unlikely, but equally possible?

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Post #34 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:53 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape, and not the other thousands of shapes that are equally unlikely, but equally possible?


:grumpy: I am not convinced of those 1000 of shapes. :grumpy:

Please show me some (say 10) of those shapes so that:

1. Black is completely surrounding an area in the corner.
2. The black formation has no cutting points
3. The status does change if a black stone is removed (this is just to prevent superfluous stones)

4. The area that black surrounds does not contain white stones
5. The area contains more than 3 empty points (preferably more than 7)

6. The status of the group depends on who's turn it is. (for this living in seki differs from living with territory)
7. The shape is not on the CornerShapes page

Deal?

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Post #35 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:37 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
But it isn't common. It is not the result of known joseki or invasion. There is no point in learning by heart the status of this shape, or any of the other thousand, because it is exceedingly unlikely that you will need that knowledge.

Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape?


I shaved the question down. What is the point of including such an unlikely shape? I have never seen it in any of my games (nor, i believe, any games that I have observed). It is interesting as a tsumego, but not as a standard corner shape, like most of the rest of the shapes on the Sensei's page.

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Post #36 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:54 pm 
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willemien wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape, and not the other thousands of shapes that are equally unlikely, but equally possible?


:grumpy: I am not convinced of those 1000 of shapes. :grumpy:

Please show me some (say 10) of those shapes so that:

1. Black is completely surrounding an area in the corner.
2. The black formation has no cutting points
3. The status does change if a black stone is removed (this is just to prevent superfluous stones)

4. The area that black surrounds does not contain white stones
5. The area contains more than 3 empty points (preferably more than 7)

6. The status of the group depends on who's turn it is. (for this living in seki differs from living with territory)
7. The shape is not on the CornerShapes page

Deal?


Actually, black groups in the corner with no external liberties are almost always (quite often? More than occassionally) in danger of a seki invasion to rob points late in the end game. If it's just a single large eye shape, and the eye shape isn't a killing shape, and the number of empty intersections of the eye shape is below some surprisingly large number (I'm going to arbitrarily guess and say 13), the chance of an invasion living in seki is very real. The more blobby the eye shape the greater the chance. The lack of external liberties means all sorts of shortage of liberty tesujis can work, and since it's in the corner you run in to some interesting seki shapes that involve false eyes even.

It almost never turns up in DDK play because the players aren't strong enough to see it. In SDK play players tend to place moves inside the eye shape because they're aware of the danger.

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Post #37 Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:58 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
As promised, I looked at my copy of 'Go Proverbs Illustrated'. :study: The part on five stone in a row on the third line in a corner is, alas, only one page.

It has two diagrams:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. 4 . . . . . . .
$$|. . . 2 1 3 . . .
$$|O O O O O X . . .
$$|X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]


..and:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$+-------------------
$$|. . . . . . . . .
$$|. . . . 2 1 3 . . .
$$|. O O O O O X . . .
$$|4 X X X X X X . . .
$$|. . . . . . . . . .[/go]


And it has a few small paragraphs explaining how they live.

It does not discuss the possibility of the attacker starting with the 1-2 point.


Thanks I added your first diagram to

Five stones on the third line in the corner

Will try to make it a nice page later (but feel free to add to the page yourself if you wish)

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Post #38 Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:14 am 
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Numsgil wrote:
willemien wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape, and not the other thousands of shapes that are equally unlikely, but equally possible?


:grumpy: I am not convinced of those 1000 of shapes. :grumpy:

Please show me some (say 10) of those shapes so that:

1. Black is completely surrounding an area in the corner.
2. The black formation has no cutting points
3. The status does change if a black stone is removed (this is just to prevent superfluous stones)

4. The area that black surrounds does not contain white stones
5. The area contains more than 3 empty points (preferably more than 7)

6. The status of the group depends on who's turn it is. (for this living in seki differs from living with territory)
7. The shape is not on the CornerShapes page

Deal?


Actually, black groups in the corner with no external liberties are almost always (quite often? More than occassionally) in danger of a seki invasion to rob points late in the end game. If it's just a single large eye shape, and the eye shape isn't a killing shape, and the number of empty intersections of the eye shape is below some surprisingly large number (I'm going to arbitrarily guess and say 13), the chance of an invasion living in seki is very real. The more blobby the eye shape the greater the chance. The lack of external liberties means all sorts of shortage of liberty tesujis can work, and since it's in the corner you run in to some interesting seki shapes that involve false eyes even.

It almost never turns up in DDK play because the players aren't strong enough to see it. In SDK play players tend to place moves inside the eye shape because they're aware of the danger.


This is just handwaving. Give an example.(say with 12 or more empty points)

Ps it is about black not able to live or only life in seki, It is not the question of white can live inside black terretory, so answers like 10x10CornerGame1, are no good because even if white lives black lives(with territory) as well.

I did make a page CommonCornerShapes what was the same page as CornerShapes only some uncommen shapes are removed. (feel free to edit)

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Post #39 Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:45 am 
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willemien wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Again, the question remains: Why include this unlikely but possible shape, and not the other thousands of shapes that are equally unlikely, but equally possible?


2. The black formation has no cutting points



So you feel that the tripod groups, J groups, weak carpenters square, comb formation, hovercraft and walkie-talkie eight should not be on the corner shapes page then? :shock:

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Post #40 Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:31 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
So you feel that the tripod groups, J groups, weak carpenters square, comb formation, hovercraft and walkie-talkie eight should not be on the corner shapes page then? :shock:


Perhaps it would be helpful to have a separate "closed corner shapes" page for this sort of information. After all, the enclosed shapes in the middle and sides are very well known to most players, but a similar shape in the corner can have very different characteristics.

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