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 Post subject: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #1 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:52 pm 
Tengen
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Black to play. it is easy if you are know famous tesuji.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #2 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:19 pm 
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Universal go server handle: Jordus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O 1 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

I know that :b1: kills white before white can kill the black group at H6... but seeing that this is a 1D-4D problem, I am probably missing some deep overall strategy....

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 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #3 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:22 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 8 6 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X 4 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X 5 O 2 9 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 1 3 . O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Instantly knew this was http://senseis.xmp.net/?PattingTheRaccoonsBelly. If white four is anywhere else, black captures white.

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 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #4 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:39 pm 
Tengen
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to:Redundant
object is to save three black stone. that might help you solve the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #5 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:45 pm 
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My best attempt
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X 8 O 1 2 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 7 . 4 6 3 5 X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Last edited by Shaddy on Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #6 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:50 pm 
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Try number 2:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O 2 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 1 4 . O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X 7 O 2 6 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 3 1 5 8 O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 O 2 1 . O O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #7 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:40 pm 
Oza
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redundant, can't w win the semeai instead?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 6 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 O 5 1 . O O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


my own stab...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O 1 2 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . 3 O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


edit: so neither of these is w's strongest resistance, shaddy gives a better one. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 5 X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X 4 O 2 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 3 X 1 X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X 5 O 4 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 3 X 1 X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #8 Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:50 pm 
Lives in sente
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jts wrote:
redundant, can't w win the semeai instead?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 6 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 O 5 1 . O O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


my own stab...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O 1 2 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . 3 O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


edit: so neither of these is w's strongest resistance, shaddy gives a better one. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 5 X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X 4 O 2 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 3 X 1 X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X 5 O 4 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 3 X 1 X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


first diagram: 3 at 5

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 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #9 Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:10 pm 
Tengen
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Shaddy wrote:
My best attempt
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X 8 O 1 2 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 7 . 4 6 3 5 X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


cutting at 1 will fail because of this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 6 O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 4 O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , 3 2 X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . O O X X X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #10 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:29 am 
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Here goes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 7 X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X 6 O 2 8 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 4 3 1 5 0 O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . 1 . O O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #215
Post #11 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:18 pm 
Gosei
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After 5 frustratingly puzzled minutes I came up with this. Move 1 looks like a good candidate for being a famous tesuji. Does it have a name ? Am I just embarrassing myself again ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O 4 3 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 2 . 5 O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

and white has no good 6. White can try other moves but black just plays the move that keeps him ahead in the capturing race.

Edit: This seems much stiffer resistance for white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O 2 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 1 3 5 . O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

But once again white seems to have no good 6.


Aaaand why I'm inevitably wrong:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 a . . O X . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

I think the answer starts at a instead, and is similar to my answer.

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