Elf 1 missed the best play in this position. Can you find it?
White to play
Enjoy!
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| Beat Elf! http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16641 |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Beat Elf! |
Elf 1 missed the best play in this position. Can you find it? White to play Enjoy!
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Sat May 18, 2019 12:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat May 18, 2019 2:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
Uberdude wrote: |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sat May 18, 2019 3:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
| Author: | zermelo [ Sat May 18, 2019 3:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
LeelaZero (should be about latest network) did not find the correct answer in 1.5 million playouts either, though it spent 6k playouts on the correct move at some point. It also thought white is losing. When I showed the correct answer, it took 50k playouts or so to see that it works and white has then a good lead. |
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| Author: | Calvin Clark [ Sat May 18, 2019 7:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
I spent about 30 seconds looking in vain mentally at liberty situations in the wrong part of the board, then sat back just saw it. Once I was in a car with with some friends and I spotted someone far ahead and said she's attractive. After we past my friends were amazed. "How did you know? Your vision is not that good!". I said, "Maybe, but a couple million years of human evolution can optimize for the right things. If it were a road sign I'd have had no chance." Human brain feature detection FTW. |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Sat May 18, 2019 9:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
| Author: | Leon [ Sun May 19, 2019 4:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
Hmm, I am quite suprised about the reports that Elf and Leela both miss the tesuji, as I expect an average 1 dan to find it in a serious game. Is that local position an obstacle for them and can we find this blindspot in similar positions? What about other AI? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun May 19, 2019 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
Leon wrote: Hmm, I am quite suprised about the reports that Elf and Leela both miss the tesuji, as I expect an average 1 dan to find it in a serious game. Is that local position an obstacle for them and can we find this blindspot in similar positions? What about other AI? I think that the problem for self-taught AI is the rarity of the position. Given enough playouts, they could make the right play, but even Elf 1, given many playouts as a commentator, did not give the position enough playouts to choose the right play. Once the player in the game, Honinbo Satsugen Meijin, made the play, Elf recognized its value. But if you miss a play and your opponent, who is a slight variation of yourself, also misses it, it has to occur in many games before one of you catches on. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon May 20, 2019 3:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
I tried this position out on a few bots with playouts in the tens to hundred thousands. None of them found it as the best move though a few did devote some playouts to it. Once I played it minigo 990 was the fastest (a few seconds) to realise it worked (noticing that against the other black hane you had to do it again as mainline variation in Lizzie on hover). I would be interested if any of the old Monte Carlo bots (either with or without a policy network) could find it. |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Mon May 20, 2019 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
sgf? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon May 20, 2019 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
Gomoto wrote: sgf? Click the diagram to download sgf of position. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon May 20, 2019 9:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
I'll load an SGF with some commentary this morning. Omachidosama. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon May 20, 2019 10:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
Castle Game. White was Honinbo Satsugen Meijin. Comments based on published Elf 1 commentary. Go to move 131. |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Sat May 25, 2019 9:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
Quote: I would be interested if any of the old Monte Carlo bots (either with or without a policy network) could find it. No At least not Zen 7 thanks for the hint on sgf downloading of diagrams, I always forget and only click here to show code ...  sgf downloading seems to be more difficult for me than playing go |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
I just found this and haven't analyzed it, but Elf may have missed the best play here. Assume 7.5 komi. White to play. After Black 151 Black has 6 White prisoners, White has 3 Black prisoners. This was a no komi game, but with Elf, let's assume 7.5 komi. Where should White play now? Enjoy!  BTW, I am curious what other bots have to say, too. The human play was not on Elf's radar.
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
Just to catch up quickly, I have to run. Quote: Assume 7.5 komi. White to play. After Black 151 Black has 6 White prisoners, White has 3 Black prisoners. This was a no komi game, but with Elf, let's assume 7.5 komi. Where should White play now? Elf's play. 55.5% White winrate estimate (29.7k playouts) Versus Yamamoto Genkichi's play in 1803. Human play (0 playouts). White winrate estimate, inherited from Elf's reply,  , 65.4% (14.9k playouts)When Elf sees Genkichi's play, it thinks it is 10% better than it's first choice, despite being off Elf's radar entirely. Edit: Elf's mainline for  .Elf's mainline variation Elf eventually gets around to Genkichi's move. Elf's mainline reply to Genkichi's ,Elf's mainline reply |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
I ran across this one the other day. Black to play. Enjoy!
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Beat Elf! |
Easy if your policy network is biased for cool moves . There's a 3-4 joseki that has the same tesuji down one line that I tried to get people to play but they never cooperated.
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