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Offline jlt
 Post subject: Tsumegos from real games
Post #1 Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:43 am 
Gosei
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In this thread I will post some tsumegos that I missed in my games. SDKs should find them fairly easy, but seeing the solution in byo-yomi without knowing if a solution exists is another matter.

The following is from a Fox 3k vs. 3k game (after a 6-game losing streak I was demoted from 2k to 3k, but afterwards won 11 games in a row so I will be back to at least 2k).

Black to play and kill something.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . O . X . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X . O . , X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X O O O . . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X . . . . . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | X X O O . . O O . O X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X O . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X X O . O X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O X O X O . . O X X . |
$$ | . O X X O X . X X O O X X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O X X X . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . X . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . X O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . O O . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . O . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . O . O X O O . O . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This post by jlt was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, iopq, marvin
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #2 Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:48 am 
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jlt wrote:
Black to play and kill something.


:tmbup:

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #3 Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:32 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . O . X . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X . O . , X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X O O O . . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X . . . . . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | X X O O . . O O . O X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X O . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | 1 . O O X . X X O . O X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X X O X O X O . . O X X . |
$$ | . O X X O X . X X O O X X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O X X X . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . X . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . X O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . O O . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . O . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . O . O X O O . O . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline jlt
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #4 Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:17 am 
Gosei
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This move indeed kills something.
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Offline explo
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #5 Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:36 am 
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jlt wrote:
This move indeed kills something.

Was it the move you had in mind? I think white can play A8 to save half the group in sente, but I don't know if it was actually played.
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Offline jlt
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #6 Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:52 am 
Gosei
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Yes, that's the move I had in mind and that I didn't see during the game. That move indeed kills half of the white group.

The actual game was ridiculous, both players didn't see that the group could be killed between moves 170 and 208, and on the other hand another white group died at move 196 although it could have survived easily, among other big mistakes.
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Offline Mike Novack
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #7 Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:38 pm 
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explo wrote:
jlt wrote:
This move indeed kills something.

Was it the move you had in mind? I think white can play A8 to save half the group in sente, but I don't know if it was actually played.


A8? And not B11? What am I not seeing?
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Offline jlt
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #8 Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:57 pm 
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I don't know if everyone is talking about the same thing, but here is a variation that kills the whole group if Black A11 and if White tries to save everything.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . O . X . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X . O . , X O . O . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X O O O . . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X . . . . . . O . O O X X . |
$$ | X X O O . . O O . O X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | 3 O . O X X X O . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | 1 2 O O X . X X O . O X . O . O . . . |
$$ | 4 . O X X . X X O X O X O . . O X X . |
$$ | . O X X O X . X X O O X X O O X . . . |
$$ | 5 O O O . O O O X X X . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . X . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . X . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . X O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . O O . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . O . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . O . O X O O . O . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(In the game I read until :w4: but didn't see that B10 was a false eye. :oops: )
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Offline EricBackus
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #9 Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:17 pm 
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To be honest, the first thing that jumped out at me on this position was a question of whether the white upper left corner is completely safe. Black has a descent on one side, and it is black's move. After looking it up, I think it probably is safe, but it's not at all obvious to me as an SDK player. Maybe there's a thousand-year ko hidden in there somewhere.
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Offline dfan
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #10 Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:15 pm 
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Here's my take on the upper left corner.

In the normal "Long L" shape, Black can make a 10,000 year ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 4 5 . . . .
$$ | 2 1 3 . O X .
$$ | . O O O O X .
$$ | . X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


If White has an extra liberty, she can resist and live with the tesuji of :w4::

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ | 7 6 4 5 . . .
$$ | 2 1 3 . O X .
$$ | . O O O O X .
$$ | . X X X a X .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ | X 8 . X 9 . .
$$ | O X X 0 O X .
$$ | . O O O O X .
$$ | . X X X a X .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

:w10: would be self-atari if a were filled, which is why White needs the liberty.

This is effectively the same situation as the game, in that White has one extra liberty than in the 10,000-year-ko situation, which I've labeled b:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O X .
$$ | . O O O O X .
$$ | b O X X X X .
$$ | X X X X . . .[/go]

I don't see any good tricks for Black (involving A17, say), so White looks safe to me.
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Offline jlt
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #11 Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:40 am 
Gosei
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Tsumego #2.

This one should be fairly easy. I am white, 5k on Tygem (possibly underranked, I haven't had many games there recently).

1. White to play. What is the status of the upper left corner?
2. Some moves of White are better than others. How can Black punish if White chooses a suboptimal move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . X O X X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . . . O . , . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . X O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O O X . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O X . X . X O . . . |[/go]


In the game, I played the following move but Black didn't find the punishment.

A18
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Offline xela
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #12 Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:37 pm 
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The black group is a dead shape, but black has threats to connect out below, so white shouldn't expect to kill the group unconditionally.

Black replies to your move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Two ways to make ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 3 X X O O . . . X O X X . . . X X . |
$$ | 2 . X O O X . . . O O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | 7 X . O . . . O . , . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | 4 O . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . . . |
$$ | 5 6 O O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . X O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O O X . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O X . X . X O . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Continuation: the more complicated ko -- black can't connect at A16!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O . . . X O X X . . . X X . |
$$ | X 2 X O O X . . . O O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O X 4 O . . . O . , . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | 3 O 1 . . . . . . . O . . . O O . . . |
$$ | O X O O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . X O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O O X . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O X . X . X O . . . |[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black's best reply: alive
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 6 7 X . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 4 X X O O . . . X O X X . . . X X . |
$$ | 5 8 X O O X . . . O O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | 2 X . O . . . O . , . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | 3 O . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . X O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O O X . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O X . X . X O . . . |[/go]

Is this the best move for white?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc This way, black can't avoid the ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X X O O . . . X O X X . . . X X . |
$$ | 2 . X O O X . . . O O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | 1 X . O . . . O . , . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | 4 O 7 . . . . . . . O . . . O O . . . |
$$ | 5 6 O O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . X O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O O X . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O X . X . X O . . . |[/go]
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Offline zermelo
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #13 Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:07 pm 
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Mike Novack wrote:
explo wrote:
jlt wrote:
This move indeed kills something.

Was it the move you had in mind? I think white can play A8 to save half the group in sente, but I don't know if it was actually played.


A8? And not B11? What am I not seeing?


A8 allows connection to lower left by B6, shown below. This is a good shape to know, as it comes up now and then in games:
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Offline jlt
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #14 Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:17 am 
Gosei
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@xela:

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black's best reply: alive
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 6 7 X . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 4 X X O O . . . X O X X . . . X X . |
$$ | 5 8 X O O X . . . O O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | 2 X . O . . . O . , . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | 3 O . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . X O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O O X . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O X . X . X O . . . |[/go]



But White can play :w5: differently:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Still a ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 6 7 X . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 4 X X O O . . . X O X X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | 2 X 5 O . . . O . , . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | 3 O . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . X O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O O X . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O X . X . X O . . . |[/go]


So it seems that if White's move is at A18, Black's best response is to threaten to connect by ko the corner group with the side group.

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc This way, black can't avoid the ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X X O O . . . X O X X . . . X X . |
$$ | 2 . X O O X . . . O O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | 1 X . O . . . O . , . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | 4 O 7 . . . . . . . O . . . O O . . . |
$$ | 5 6 O O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . X O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O O X . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O X . X . X O . . . |[/go]



The following response by White looks better, since even if Black wins the ko, the corner group is still disconnected.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Better for White
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 6 . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X X O O . . . X O X X . . . X X . |
$$ | 2 7 X O O X . . . O O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | 1 X 5 O . . . O . , . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | 3 O . . . . . . . . O . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . X O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O O X . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O X . X . X O . . . |[/go]

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Offline xela
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #15 Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:46 am 
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So many different ways to make ko! Thanks for the clear explanation.
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Offline jlt
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #16 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:01 am 
Gosei
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Tsumego #3: a tesuji problem. White to play and get a good result. What are the next few moves?

That kind of position is beyond my reading horizon in a real game, even though it was a slow game on a physical board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . X . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X W W W W X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . X . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline jlt
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #17 Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:54 pm 
Gosei
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Tsumego #4. Black to play and capture some stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . X O . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O O . O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X O . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . O O . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #18 Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:53 pm 
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jlt wrote:
Tsumego #3: a tesuji problem. White to play and get a good result. What are the next few moves?

That kind of position is beyond my reading horizon in a real game, even though it was a slow game on a physical board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . X . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X X O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X W W W W X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . X . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black goes along and blocks after you push:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . X . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 2 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X 1 X X O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X W W W W X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . X . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Then there are some interesting options:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . X . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X 5 . . 3 4 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X 1 2 . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X X O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . X . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . X . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X 5 . 4 3 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X 1 2 . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X X O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . X . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


but the last diagram is not perfect, because if black gives up a few stones, the "important" ones are still in danger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . X . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X 5 . 4 3 6 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X 1 2 . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X X O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . X . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's also possible that black doesn't answer the way you'd expect with the initial push. Maybe something weird, I dunno - it's not totally clear to me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . X . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X 1 X X O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . X . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
be immersed
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #19 Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:55 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9550
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
jlt wrote:
Tsumego #4. Black to play and capture some stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . X O . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O O . O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X O . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . O O . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


One possible option:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 5 4 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 9 3 O 1 X O . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X X O 6 X O O 2 O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . 7 X X O . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . O O . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . X O . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline xela
 Post subject: Re: Tsumegos from real games
Post #20 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:06 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 600
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Liked others: 212
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Rank: Australian 2 dan
GD Posts: 200
Tsumego 3, I'm thinking along similar lines to Kirby:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X b O . X . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . 9 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X a . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X X 2 3 4 8 . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X 1 X X O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X W W W W X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

:b6: and friends are down to two liberties. The points a and b are miai, so I think black can't escape being captured. But I don't think of this as tesuji, white is playing fairly blunt moves. Or have I missed something better?
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