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Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1744		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
I'm black, Shaddy is white, no komi. We actually played two games, each winning one on account of a silly mistake. This will be the second (longer) one, it should be pretty entertaining. (What is this? See here)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess I'll let Shaddy post his moves?

And I guess I'll let people make predictions and/or ask before posting my thoughts?
Author:  Chew Terr [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
Thanks to both of you for doing this. I look forwards to it. Not a lot we can tell from this first move, as it's probably some combination of 'current favorite opening, whim, and what you've been seeing lately'.
Author:  Redundant [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
I think Daniel took my suggestion in that other thread, and will play jabberwocks here.

As for white ... he's about to do something incredibly odd and unpredictable.
Author:  Shaddy [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  fwiffo [ Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
To me, :w2: makes a lot of sense. Black playing the 4-4 in the lower left permits an attractive approach to the 3-4 stone in the lower right, but that would be a cross fuseki. The 5-3 stone is influence oriented, and the 3-4 stone is territory oriented, and cross-fuseki games tend to be territorial because it's more difficult to build large moyos. At the same time, the :b1: is oriented toward development of the right side, but black does not have a good approach to :w2: from that direction.
Author:  Loons [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
While what fwiffo says is true, I think it's important to note that 5-3s are very flexible stones. While the press (developing the right) might be less ideal, this stone may become an enclosure or left with an eye to pincering an approach.
Author:  dfan [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
My move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Hey, why not
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$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
That's one point to dfan, if you're keeping score. ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wanted to play q4 with this move, to complete Araban's suggested opening, but Shaddy shut that plan down, so I had to fall back to the jabberwock.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
Not sure if this is a Shaddy sort of opening, but I like this one:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  zinger [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
Looks like a job for san-san to me. Dunno if that is Shaddy's style though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


never tried mukai komoku, don't really like the way it looks for some reason. 3-3 fits my style but it's annoying giving away so much influence, i'd rather just play 4-4.
Author:  Loons [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
Because of the 4-4, I think Shaddy will play the high approach to the top left, so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: Changed my mind, I think this is not good at all. If I were white I would play the normal approach anyway (of 2 at 3)
Author:  Chew Terr [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . 5 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had originally considered an enclosure in the top right, but, on consideration, I really like this. It complicates your opponent's position and lets you leave your top fluid, so that you can decide how to act with it based on how things turn out.
Author:  Loons [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
@Chew
While what you suggest is certainly possible (like many moves in the opening ...) I don't like it.

It lets white play a pincer that he very much wants to play (one space high looks good?). White can get a very nice result, and black is kind of obliged to go back and enclose the top right afterwards anyway.


Edit:
Wracking my brains a bit, I think I remember that the captain likes this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And who doesn't want to be more like TheCaptain
Author:  dfan [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
My move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can never resist making shimaris as soon as I am allowed to. Completing this one and inviting White into the upper right to be attacked seems more promising than vice versa.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
I have to say I'm liking my move more than the suggested ones...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I almost said you could guess if you thought about what I was originally trying to play but that would have given it away... :)

This switches to an influence based opening, I think, and I'm trying to learn new stuff, so I played it.
Author:  freegame [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
I got a question about blacks opening:

The goal of a Dankovitch is to give kyu players an insight in the thoughts of dan players isn't it?
Then why do you play such an uncommon opening?

guessing the next move:
I would play something in the top right. My choice would be Q17.

here the variation I have in mind.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . 4 3 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


this seems to neutralize blacks move 7 and 9 as well as
the influence orientated moves black has in the top left.
Author:  dfan [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
I'm happy to see this. This sort of shimari always terrifies me (as White in this case) and I'm eager to see how Shaddy handles it.
There doesn't seem to be any rush to invade the top left. In an actual game I would probably panic and play a, giving Black a ton of influence. But I'm going to claim that White can wait one more move and claim his own shimari first - if Black completes his, White should be able to occupy the top side plus invade the top left later.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(Ha, now I look at freegame's move and he played a. :))

Quote:
The goal of a Dankovitch is to give kyu players an insight in the thoughts of dan players isn't it?

I think that part of it is to give the kyu players a chance to think about the moves first, before they're explained; otherwise it's kind of just a Malkovich game.
Author:  amnal [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
freegame wrote:
I got a question about blacks opening:

The goal of a Dankovitch is to give kyu players an insight in the thoughts of dan players isn't it?
Then why do you play such an uncommon opening?




If the thoughts of dan players are 'I'll play differently to normal so that the kyu players will understand', maybe that defeats the point :D

I realise that that's a false argument, but still, I doubt this sort of game is really less suitable than one where the players try to stick rigidly to more well known joseki. If nothing else, I think it's valuable to see how little the middlegame is influenced by your opponent's weird shapes in the opening ;)

Actually, I think this is a great choice, because the shimari is fairly well researched whilst also being interesting and difficult to use effectively. It's only a little less professionally common than playing one space higher (which seems to be a fairly common amateur 'I will eat the whole board' move), though the normal shimari outnumbers both of these by far. It will be interesting to see how white chooses to handle it based on positional judgement, but also interesting to see if it matches pro responses (IMO, anyway).
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dankovitch I: Shaddy vs. dts
freegame wrote:
I got a question about blacks opening:

The goal of a Dankovitch is to give kyu players an insight in the thoughts of dan players isn't it?
Then why do you play such an uncommon opening?


If I played differently than normal (for me) just because people would be looking at the game then it wouldn't be an accurate reflection of how I normally play, I don't think. And it's high time I experiment with my opening a little.

Besides, this way I can't pretend to know what I'm doing... :D
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