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 Post subject: Revisiting net vs cover where bots disagreed with Kageyama
Post #1 Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 3:08 pm 
Oza

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<Uberdude with moderator/librarian hat on>
I moved these posts out of https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17495, the title is mine not John's
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Quote:


I'm returning to this thread but on a different strand. I was searching on geta in connection with something else and came across the above post by uberdude which I had somehow missed before.

Rather like Robert, I think he was putting words in Kageyama's mouth. I am not saying Kage was right or wrong about nets - I'm too weak to know. But I think there's a case to be made that there's a worrying mismatch between what he did say and what people are saying he said.

This is the position in the book:



Note first of all that it was not Kage who played A. It was Kajiwara. The game was from the Tokyo Shinbun Cup in 1967. Kage won. Furthermore, when he first introduced the position it was clearly in the context of the whole game. For example, he talked about how Yamabe criticised his opening, whereas Sugiuchi praised, in his newspaper column, Kage's "new move" (they were both wrong about that, incidentally - Fujisawa Hideyuki played it in the Oteai in 1949).

But then he says: "That was a digression. Let us return to the main topic." (話が横道にそれた。本題にもどろう。) And he reinforces that it is a new level of discussion by repeating the diagram.

He begins that new section by saying "Black 1: This, too, is a geta." (黒1これもゲタ である。) James Davies adds a nuance to that by translating as "Black 1 epitomises a net", but I suppose could say 'no harm, no foul' there. Either way, it is quite clear the topic is now nets/geta. Not the game. In addition, he specifically says this Black 1 is the move that blocks off any tactical measures (tedate) for the three white stones, to escape. Again, geta is the topic. Thirdly, Kage then goes straight on to say that, whenever he had the opportunity, he would ask other people, amateurs and pros, whether they should play A or B. It is conceivable that he set up the complete position whenever he made these enquiries, but he himself says he just asked A or B. Just geta. I suspect he just set up the local position. He clearly wasn't asking what the best move in this game position.

Note the arguments used here to "prove" Kageyama made mistakes about nets seem to be based entirely on what a bot recommended. But bots do give us "the best move in this game position." Bots were said to like A (the move Kage also said he would have played had he been in Kajiwara's position, incidentally). In other words, the question put to the bots was not "which is right geta?" but was whatever variation you like on "what is the best move in this game?"

We can anyway get a strong sense that the bots were not looking for a geta as such, because most of the moves it looked at in this game position were in a swathe across the upper side - about a dozen moves were highlighted there in my Leela run.

We can also get a sense that a geta is not the main priority from the three other database games that feature this corner position. Apart from the Fujisawa game above, the other two were between Yi Ch'ang-ho and Yi Se-tol and between Ch'oe Ch'eol-han and An Yeong-kil - very high level stuff. In none of those cases did the outside player try to geta the three espaliered stones. In other words, in real life the geta is a secondary issue.

But in that section of the book, geta was Kage's priority. He did return to the game indirectly by saying that he felt something like grateful to Kajiwara for playing A against him, because it made him think, and as time went on he began to appreciate the virtues of that move. Nota very bene: he still did not say it was a good move in the game. He only said he began to see its virtues.

More thought does often change one's perspective radically, doesn't it? Even for bots :)

What I found on running Leela (in a very slightly modified position to eliminate all bar one of the stones elsewhere), was that B was instantly the favoured move by far, and stayed that way for a long time. A didn't even appear. But as the program ran and ran, two notable things happened. One was that A did appear. And when it first appeared the score differential was about B 45%, A 39%. But as the search deepened, LZ began to, like Kage, to see the virtues of A, and by the time I reached around 40k playouts, the differential had become B 43.9%, A 43.8%.

However, the other thing that happened was that B itself, while admittedly still dominating in number of playouts, was overtaken by the thick turn at G15. So are we to assume "sometimes Leela was wrong about nets"?

I imagine most people would dismiss that question swiftly, and I certainly don't want to argue about it. I just want to stand up again for Kageyama, and I don't want him dismissed so easily.

And in that connection, as I have pointed out in the past, Kageyama did not even set out to give "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" as such. He entitled his book "Ama to Puro" which has a double meaning. On the one hand it can be understood as talking about the differences between amateurs and professionals (which he does, of course), but also it can be read as simply "amateur and professional" in reference to his own career in which he spent a long time as an amateur before turning pro. So, either way, to accuse him of not teaching the fundamentals is also a wee bit wide of the mark.

Obviously I know that expecting people on a forum to actually read what is written is like spitting in the wind. But lockdown goes on and on, and I'm bored....


Last edited by Uberdude on Fri May 22, 2020 12:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
Added post moved notice


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 2 people: Ferran, sorin
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 Post subject: Re: Kageyama's Fundamentals, dia. Nets-10
Post #2 Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 7:00 pm 
Honinbo

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OC, this position has already been hashed out. But John's note got me interested again. :) I don't have the book, so I have to rely upon what others have said about it.

John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:


I'm returning to this thread but on a different strand. I was searching on geta in connection with something else and came across the above post by uberdude which I had somehow missed before.

Rather like Robert, I think he was putting words in Kageyama's mouth. I am not saying Kage was right or wrong about nets - I'm too weak to know. But I think there's a case to be made that there's a worrying mismatch between what he did say and what people are saying he said.

This is the position in the book:



Note first of all that it was not Kage who played A. It was Kajiwara. The game was from the Tokyo Shinbun Cup in 1967. Kage won.


Thanks, I looked it up in the Elf commentaries. :)

Quote:
Furthermore, when he first introduced the position it was clearly in the context of the whole game. For example, he talked about how Yamabe criticised his opening, whereas Sugiuchi praised, in his newspaper column, Kage's "new move" (they were both wrong about that, incidentally - Fujisawa Hideyuki played it in the Oteai in 1949).


Was that :w22:, the hane on D-12?

Quote:
But then he says: "That was a digression. Let us return to the main topic." (話が横道にそれた。本題にもどろう。) And he reinforces that it is a new level of discussion by repeating the diagram.

He begins that new section by saying "Black 1: This, too, is a geta." (黒1これもゲタ である。) James Davies adds a nuance to that by translating as "Black 1 epitomises a net", but I suppose could say 'no harm, no foul' there. Either way, it is quite clear the topic is now nets/geta.


That's how it seems to me, too.

Quote:
Not the game.


Well, then, why show the whole board? White has two stones to one in the top right corner, and, in fact, White just played on the 3-3, allowing the geta. Surely that's relevant. I know that Kageyama's target audience is mostly kyu players, but kyu players think about the whole board, too. :)

Quote:
In addition, he specifically says this Black 1 is the move that blocks off any tactical measures (tedate) for the three white stones, to escape. Again, geta is the topic.


Indeed. :)

Quote:
Thirdly, Kage then goes straight on to say that, whenever he had the opportunity, he would ask other people, amateurs and pros, whether they should play A or B. It is conceivable that he set up the complete position whenever he made these enquiries, but he himself says he just asked A or B. Just geta. I suspect he just set up the local position. He clearly wasn't asking what the best move in this game position.


Unclear.

Quote:
Note the arguments used here to "prove" Kageyama made mistakes about nets seem to be based entirely on what a bot recommended.


Looking at the links, I happened to see what I said at the time. Even before reading the bots' recommendations, I thought that Kageyama's argument was weak. According to the quoted section, he said that only amateurs would debate whether to play A or B, that Kajiwara's geta at A was the only move. The bots prefer B, instead, to varying degrees, I suppose. Elf thinks that A loses 13½% to B, but Elf has strong opinions. Elf's comparison is based on around 29k rollouts for each move. I gather that the bots agree to answer A with the peep on the 5th line, followed by the kosumi on the 4th line after the block. Do we really think that the timing of that sequence is not related to the top right corner?

Quote:
But bots do give us "the best move in this game position." Bots were said to like A (the move Kage also said he would have played had he been in Kajiwara's position, incidentally).


First, Kajiwara's geta shows up as A on my screen, which seems to be different from what you are saying.

That statement seems to contradict his statement that Kajiwara's A is the only move. I don't have the book, so I can't check.

Quote:
In other words, the question put to the bots was not "which is right geta?" but was whatever variation you like on "what is the best move in this game?"


Indeed. I would like to be able to focus the bots to certain regions of the board. You can do that as things are, but it takes setting things up.

Quote:
We can also get a sense that a geta is not the main priority from the three other database games that feature this corner position. Apart from the Fujisawa game above, the other two were between Yi Ch'ang-ho and Yi Se-tol and between Ch'oe Ch'eol-han and An Yeong-kil - very high level stuff. In none of those cases did the outside player try to geta the three espaliered stones. In other words, in real life the geta is a secondary issue.


Well, in the other three cases, the geta is not an issue at all, because the player corresponding to White in this game did not tenuki, but bolstered the three stones on the top side.

Quote:
Nota very bene: he still did not say it was a good move in the game. He only said he began to see its virtues.


Well, if the quotation is correct, he said it was the only play.

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