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Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17559 |
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Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
With apologies to Dave (ez4u), but as you shall see, I couldn't resist. This pair of problems comes from a game between Takagawa and Fujisawa Hideyuki (GoGoD 1965-03-11a, 5.5 komi. Takagawa was White). I don't have to worry about whether the human play is textbook or not. These two guys, known as masters of the fuseki in their time, wrote the textbooks. ![]() Problem 4. Lots of choices, but I think that the bots will probably agree on the same point or next to it. And that they won't like Takagawa's play, by comparison. Problem 5 is hidden, for when you are ready. ![]() |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
Discussion of Problem 4. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
Discussion of Problem 5. |
Author: | lightvector [ Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
KataGo recent stronger unreleased 40 blocks, lots of playouts, analysisWideRootNoise = 0.1 to force evaluation of lots of options. Winrates from black's perspective. Problem 4 Problem 5 |
Author: | lightvector [ Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
Also for problem 4... |
Author: | Uberdude [ Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
Corners before sides! |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
lightvector wrote: Also for problem 4... Thanks. ![]() OC, the peep was joseki at the time. |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:10 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
Problem 4: I'm not giving away anything by saying that White needs to choose between continuing locally (if so where), or playing elsewhere (if so where). |
Author: | ez4u [ Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:46 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
I think that we need to realize the context here. Katago calculates that ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() At this point there are two unfinished corners for Black to choose from. Blue is the large knight's enclosure at the bottom right while the same large knight enclosure in the top right is a close competitor. But there is something else here as well. Katago calculates that White's invasion at a on the left side is a very important point. In the actual game White never plays there. However, looking at katago's analysis the issue persists. This does not appear in human play. Policy for White when Black takes the bottom. If we run a search in GoGoD on the left side of the board in the game. There are 260 hits. Only 7 of the games have the next play at k below. The ten plays that appear more frequently are marked a through j (variously for White and Black, e.g. White's most frequent next play in this area is the extension at a while Black's is the attachment at b). In reality play normally moves elsewhere, often for considerable lengths of time. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
Applying the LZ Opening Gospel to problem 4: No urgent local situations or class -3 to -1. The presence of the 5-3 stone means it's not an empty corner, but class 1 tells you to play only 4-4 or 4-3 as the first move in corner, and a litle interpretation of the gospel tells you correcting your mistake of playing silly distant corner moves by turning them back into a good 3-4 shimari is somewhere between class 1 (first move in empty corner) and class 2 (shimari/approach a 3-4). So the gospel says white should play: Gospel gets it right again! (Honestly, I didn't bribe Bill to set this up) Gospel: 3, Humans: 0, N/A: 1 |
Author: | iopq [ Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
Uberdude wrote: Applying the LZ Opening Gospel to problem 4: No urgent local situations or class -3 to -1. The presence of the 5-3 stone means it's not an empty corner, but class 1 tells you to play only 4-4 or 4-3 as the first move in corner, and a litle interpretation of the gospel tells you correcting your mistake of playing silly distant corner moves by turning them back into a good 3-4 shimari is somewhere between class 1 (first move in empty corner) and class 2 (shimari/approach a 3-4). In this case, because you made a low shimari it's not actually efficient according to fat KataGo. But having the white stone at 5-4 is JUST as good as 4-4, where the Black win rate is 50.5% or so in both cases. With the stone at 5-4 it likes the shimari, with the stone at 4-4 it likes approaching another 3-4 You may also notice that playing 3-3 vs. a 5-4 stone is good, but not necessarily better than vs. a 4-4 stone |
Author: | dhu163 [ Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:55 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5 |
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