It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:50 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Opening problems for AI: Problem 11
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:57 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Another game between Takagawa (W) and Sakata, GoGoD 1954-09-08a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Takagawa made a textbook play, but Elf reckons that it loses 16% to par.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: sorin
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 11
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:00 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
No surprise, Boshi no Takagawa played a boshi on the left side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Boshi, game continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b29: secured the top left corner, and then :w30: attaches against :bc: to invade the left side.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Elf's mainline variation for :b29:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . . . . . . 8 O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 . . 5 , . . . 7 X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After the kick, :b29:, and :w30:, :b31: bolsters the Black group in the top right and aims at the pincer, :b33:. :w32: starts an attack against the Black group. :b37: plays on the frontier of the incipient moyos, expanding the Black moyo and limiting the expansion of the White moyo. With sente, nonetheless.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Elf variation for :w28:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w28: attacks the Black group. If :b29:, White switches to the top left corner with :w30:p


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Variation 2, mainline
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . . . . . . 4 O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 3 X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 6 . O . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the mainline variation :b29: plays the kick in the top left, then White presses the attack against the Black group. As a result White builds a moyo into the center. Elf regards this attack as more urgent than the boshi on the left side.

Elf regarded the top right as urgent earlier. Sakata played :b23: at a in the next diagram, but Elf recommends making a wall on the right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Mainline for :b23:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . 5 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: sorin
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 11
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:06 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 470
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 278
Rank: UK 2d Dec15
KGS: mathmo 4d
IGS: mathmo 4d
Speculatively:
Current position:
1. Right side seems hot, but I can't see a good move for W to defend. P12 might be slack. P6 too will lose territory when later B R7.
2. C17 seems natural to settle.
3. E15, E5 very natural but as B has support, B can fight back with E3/E17. Hence, its tempting to probe around E12 first. D10 is shapey later but I don't see any weak B group to fight against. Still E15/E5 very natural anyway. On the other hand W can't easily make a big area on upper side or lower side as B has groups on the edges of it (in all 4 corners) and W can only thinly shut them off.
4. W might have a moyo on the lower side, but this seems to require P6 first.
5. O16 shapey, but too damaging to right side.
6. P2 a move sometimes, hard to judge.
7. Overall I am tempted by P6 with E15 second.

Opp to play
1. E17 E16 H17 attack.
2. O4 get out, cut off weak group
3. N15 defend weak group, reduce top.

Past:
1. Seems pretty balanced, B's shape on left is ok, B has advantage in 3 corners, but the S16 S17 exchange is terrible.

Check:
1. I missed the key point at P13, probably due to not daring to play such a tight move.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group