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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:35 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black to play :b7:.

Black's textbook play loses 13½% to par according to Elf. Assuming komi, as always.

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #2 Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:55 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm thinking either R3 or R4, since the upper left can handle itself after a tenuki. Perhaps with a preference for R3, since black has miai to enclose one or the other corner.

I could also see, because AI seem to like it, pressing at E16 a few times first and then going to the corner, but it seems weird to me.

This post by skydyr was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, Harleqin, pwaldron
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Offline pwaldron
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:25 am 
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I'm with skydyr. I don't think I can say anything he hasn't.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:44 am 
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Presuming Elf wants to take the empty corner and the players didn't following the theory of whatever textbooks Bill read, all I can say is: Good thing I didn't study the textbooks Bill did!

This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bill Spight
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:00 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Presuming Elf wants to take the empty corner and the players didn't following the theory of whatever textbooks Bill read, all I can say is: Good thing I didn't study the textbooks Bill did!


Any joseki play is a textbook play. :)

As for this whole board position, in human play Black has only played a few different moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Various options in Waltheri
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 7 . . . 7 . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 7 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline John Fairbairn
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:21 am 
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Bill: You can add F15 to your list (Ito Showa, newly discovered game).
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:53 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Bill: You can add F15 to your list (Ito Showa, newly discovered game).


Done! :)

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:45 pm 
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How many points did :w6: lose according to elf? If it was less than 13%, the interesting question would be why the empty corner would be more valuable for Black than for White.

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:36 am 
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ez4u wrote:
How many points did :w6: lose according to elf? If it was less than 13%, the interesting question would be why the empty corner would be more valuable for Black than for White.


Elf says that :w6: lost 15½% to par. In addition, as you suggest, with komi the last open corner is the obvious place for White to play :w6:. It's not so obvious for :b7:. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:37 am 
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As already indicated, in pro play Black has made a few different responses. Black played this counter-pincer as :b7: in GoGoD 1776-06-00a, Wakayama Ritcho (W) vs. Suzuki Gennojo, and 1782-03-11, Yasui Senchi Senkaku (W) vs. Kono Mototora. In both games White responded with the kick in the corner, :w8:. And then :b9: was the combination two space extension cum three space pincer, also in both games. But Elf prefers the stand at a for :b9:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Counter-pincer, a mistake
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . 7 . . 9 . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . 5 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Mainline variation for :b9:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . X . . 9 . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . 8 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This variation comes from the Elf commentary for the Wakayama-Suzuki game, which gave it more rollouts, 54.5k, than the Yasui-Kono game.

After :b9:, :w10: secured a 3d line base for White in the corner. Then :b11: occupied the last open corner. :w12: turned to the press in the top right corner, and then :w16: broke the sector line in the top left. Then :b17: made a base on the top side, countering the influence of the White wall in the top right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Mainline variation for :b9:, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X . . X . 4 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . B B . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w18: made a thin, three space extension towards the bottom left corner, which :b19: enclosed with a keima. :w19: played the 5th line keima, attacking the :bc: stones on a large scale. Then :b20: attacked the thin White wall in the top right, taking away its potential base on the 3d line.

Top choice, the press

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Mainline for :b7:, the press
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . . . O 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 3 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This variation comes from the Yasui-Kono game, which gives it more rollouts, 25.9k, than any other game in the Elf GoGoD commentary that has the same position after :w6:.

:b7: pressed against the top left corner and then :b11: occupied the bottom right corner. Note that Black occupies the bottom right corner in both mainline variations.

Next, :w12: played the press in the top right corner. :b13: replied with the kick, and :b15: played the slide on the right side without further strengthening White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Mainline for :b7:, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . , X X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 8 6 X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 4 7 5 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w16: invades the bottom right corner, with the following joseki. :w26: does not show up because it got fewer than 1500 rollouts, if any, but the crawl to a is the expected play. As always, long variations should be taken with a grain of salt.

The main difference between the press and the counter-pincer appears to be the strength of Black in the top left corner with the press, while with the counter-pincer Black's two stones in the top left are more vulnerable As indicated, the occupation of the bottom right corner does not appear to be much of a factor.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline dhu163
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 31
Post #11 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:34 pm 
Lives in gote

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Speculatively:
Current position:
1. Empty corner !!! A 3-4 tends to work best with other 3-4's and Q3 is most normal to keep balance, and I like it particularly here when W has a moyo on the upper side since C15 is weak and R16 is low. W is likely to have the advantage to press R16 low towards the right, so B doesn't want to play closer to the right side.
2. E16 also looks great to settle the fighting area in sente turning the upper side from W's moyo into a flat 3rd shape.


Opp to play
1. E16 is locally great here despite the empty corner. Though to be honest, I think I still prefer the corner slightly.
2. W would like to support the fight with influence even in the empty corner, so W at Q4 seems plausible to me. Otherwise Q3 seems good.

Past:
1. :w4:, :b5: are both unusual, but I think :w6: is worse than both (though I expect its not more than 2 points loss) especially as there is no follow up to extend toward the lower left corner.

Overall:
1. Press E16 then Q4 helps support the fight.

Check:
1. Yep
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