It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:54 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 32
Post #21 Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:28 am 
Oza

Posts: 3647
Liked others: 20
Was liked: 4626
Quote:
Early enough so that a normal option, such as playing in an empty corner, approaching a 3-4, 5-4, or 5-3, or making a shimari with one of them, or playing a press against a 3-4 is available.


Applying this criterion strictly, I see only three recent examples, and it may be significant that the "perpetrator" in each case is Komatsu Hideki (games on 2006-07-06, 2007-08-09 and 2011-11-06).

And who does Hideki think he is to be so different? It may also be significant that the first recorded example of this line was by the famous joseki man Komatsu Kaizen!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 32
Post #22 Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:30 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Early enough so that a normal option, such as playing in an empty corner, approaching a 3-4, 5-4, or 5-3, or making a shimari with one of them, or playing a press against a 3-4 is available.


Applying this criterion strictly, I see only three recent examples, and it may be significant that the "perpetrator" in each case is Komatsu Hideki (games on 2006-07-06, 2007-08-09 and 2011-11-06).

And who does Hideki think he is to be so different? It may also be significant that the first recorded example of this line was by the famous joseki man Komatsu Kaizen!


Thanks. :) I was aware of the 2007-08-09 game, where Komatsu, vs. Iyama, played tenuki, but it was to approach a 4-4. But then he kept sente and came back and played the hanging connection instead of enclosing a corner. That last decision may be justified by keeping Iyama from expanding his moyo. Let me take a quick look at those games in the Elf GoGoD commentaries. :)

Edit: I'm not finding the 2011/11/06 game in the commentaries. :( But that's OK. The other two games were worth the look. :D

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 32
Post #23 Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:48 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
The Komatsu-Iyama game on 2007/08/09

The position after :w14: could be an Only Move problem. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Where is Black's only move?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Low approach
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , 2 b . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b15: approach the top left corner. :w16: may be the best reply, but a and b are also good. After :w16: Black has several good plays.

Game continuation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 Moves 15 to 20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O 1 . . . , . 3 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . 2 . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . . b . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b15: and :w16: Within the margin of error.
:b17: Minor error by comparison with approaching the top left corner
:w18: Within the margin of error.
:w20: Minor error. Better to slide at a, expecting to slide to b later. That makes a good formation within Black's sphere of influence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Moves 21 to 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 . b . . . . . . . . X . 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . 7 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , O X . . . , . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . 9 O . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . . . . 5 3 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b25: anticipates AlphaGo. :)
:w30: Mistake. Loses 16½% to the enclosure at a.
:b31: replied at b, another mistake, indicating a shared blind spot.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Variation 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O X . . . , . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After :w30: encloses the top left corner, if :b31: expands Black's territorial framework, the slide to :w32: is fine. :) This is a matter of judgement, OC.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Mainline variation for :w30:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . W . 4 . . . . . 9 . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O X . . . , . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After :w30:, :b31: encloses the top right corner. Then :w32: starts an interesting reduction of Black's moyo. :D :w34: makes a dogleg keima with :w32: and :wc:. :b35: and :b37: embrace :w32:, and then :w38: plays a jump attachment. Very interesting reduction, IMO. :) (Not that it is finished, OC. Play continues.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Mainline variation for :b31:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , O X . . . , . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The high approach to the top left corner, followed by the typical joseki, is good against White's thickness in the bottom left.

Elf's verdict: Tenuki OK, hanging connection a mistake.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 32
Post #24 Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:34 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
2006/07/06 game. Komatsu Hideki (W) vs. Mimura Tomoyasu

The fuseki is the same as the 2007 game through :w16:, the tenuki to approach the bottom right corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Moves 17 to 26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . b . . c . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 5 . . . . . 0 . . 9 . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X . . . , 4 . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b17: is within 1% of Elf's top choice at a.
:b21: Within the margin of error.
:b25: Within the margin of error. After :w24: Elf's top choice for Black shifts to b, enclosing the top right corner. That may be explained by the fact that :w24: limits Black's potential development from a.
:w26: Within the margin of error. Elf's top choice for White has shifted to the invasion of the top right corner at c.
:b27: at d. Minor error by comparison with a. Elf's top choice has shifted again. ;)

Verdict: Tenuki still OK. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 32
Post #25 Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:04 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 470
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 278
Rank: UK 2d Dec15
KGS: mathmo 4d
IGS: mathmo 4d
Speculatively:
Current position:
1. Q4 stands out. B has influence in the upper left and lower left and some fighting advantage in the upper right, so an influence stone to counteract that seems good.
2. Otherwise, C3 is always big but when B is reducing the left side with E14 aji, I am sceptical.
3. F15 is big for shape but it is well known that it leaves behind C18 aji, so it is probably bad.

Opp to play
1. Q4 stands out for the same reasons. Otherwise, I'm slightly biased towards R4 than Q3 after problem 31

Past:
1. The upper left joseki I remember as marginally better for B. What the hell is P17 doing? F16 is surely premature. How can both sides leave an empty corner?
2. As W gets the empty corner as well as another big move (C4/Q15), I think W is marginally ahead.

Overall:
1. I'm sticking with Q4, seems obvious.
2. Did the pro play F15 or M17 or something?

Check:
1. Hmm, so R4 is better. I guess the point is to say that P17 is weak enough it can be sacrificed the fight, but if not sacrificed, then R4 helps support the weak stone. Probably I was wrong to think that W should try to compete with B's influence and I should have been more worried that B would invade 3-3.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group