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 Post subject: Opening problems for AI: Problem 38
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:07 am 
Honinbo

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Another swastika 5-3 special. :) Assume komi, as always.

Black to play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 38
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:23 pm 
Gosei
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Avoiding the press in any of the bottom corners is less urgent than approaching the top left, which is the big move. The top right may be more urgent. Cover or kick? Probably the latter.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Kick
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Approach
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 4 . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . 0 O 5 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 9 7 X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Kick
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There are more variations in the top right but my feeling is that Black gains less by playing in the top left than by taking control of the top right.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 38
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:55 am 
Lives in gote

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Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . b a , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



First thought was right or bottom side pincers, but it's tough to find a good move. White may just push down and Black ends up overconcentrated. On the other hand, a kosumi or such in those corners just seems wimpy.

Similarly, if Black jumps into the top left, he's going to be pushed down and risks being overconcentrated with the pincer on the top.

So...top right it is. In the old days I would have played 'a', aiming to build something that would support a right side pincer. In another one of Bill's positions, though, Elf liked 'b' as the local follow-up. I won't claim any special insight, but monkey see, monkey do.


This post by pwaldron was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 38
Post #4 Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:57 am 
Honinbo

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It seems to me that a number of choices for :b9: are playable. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Central to development
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 3 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . X . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In terms of Black's development the bottom right corner seems important. From there you can move towards either of the adjacent corners where Black has a 3-4 stone. Back in the 70s I might have tried the two space high pincer, hoping for something like this variation.

Today, however, the bots are not all that fond of pincers. ;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 38
Post #5 Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:00 am 
Honinbo

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The game is GoGoD 1690-01-29a, a Castle Game between Honinbo Doteki (W) and Yasui Chitetsu.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Second pincer, low posture
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 4 2 , b . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . 1 . . . . 5 . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Chitetsu chose to play a second two space pincer in the bottom left. In the 20th century :w10: would have had the purpose of forcing Black into a low posture on the bottom side. Whatever Doteki's feeling may have been at the time, that goal was far from being articulated yet. :w10: at a, enclosing the top left corner, is playable. Then :b11: is the kosumi at 10, which would have a good relation to :b9:. Elf docks the :b9: pincer 13½% to par. Instead of crawling with :b11: in the game, Elf prefers the kick at b by 1½%.

Top choice: Shoulder hit in the top right corner

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Shoulder hit
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . X . . O . b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . a , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

While the the top left corner looks good, Elf prefers the shoulder blow in the top right corner. To my mild surprise. The 3-3 invasion against a 5-3 is one of its favorite plays. But anyway, a second pincer this early in the game is just too much. :w10: plays the press in the bottom left corner, but, OC, a, b, and c are also playable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Mainline, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . 0 O . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X 3 7 X 5 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 8 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The action shifts to the joseki in the top right corner. While Elf stops here, because the next play would have fewer than 1500 rollouts, we can predict the next few plays.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 Joseki, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O 5 O X 3 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My main reasons for choosing this problem were first, to show how bad Elf thinks the second pincer is. The first early pincer may be doubtful, or even a minor error, but the second is definitely bad. The second reason is that Elf prefers the shoulder hit in the top right corner to the invasion or approach to the top left corner, which it values highly. I do not know what other bots will prefer, but I doubt if they will like the second pincer. ;)

Interestingly, both human solvers so far are drawn to the top right corner, as well. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 38
Post #6 Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:56 am 
Gosei
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Numbering mistake Bill. Your first diagram (and subsequent) should be like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Shoulder hit
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . X . . O . b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . a , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 38
Post #7 Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:05 pm 
Honinbo

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Knotwilg wrote:
Numbering mistake Bill. Your first diagram (and subsequent) should be like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Shoulder hit
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . X . . O . b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . a , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Oops! :oops: Thanks. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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