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 Post subject: Retraining the Neural Network in My Head - Part 1
Post #1 Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:51 am 
Dies with sente

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Rank: British 3 kyu
KGS: thirdfogie
I have been trying to retrain the unreliable neural net in my head. The study
began with relatively simple cases where KataGo reports that I often choose
the wrong move even though there are only two possibilities.

All the games were played on KGS against the same opponent. He always has the
black stones and there is no komi. I am about 4 kyu and he is a stone weaker.
The analysis will probably be of little interest to anyone else, but collecting
and organising the material may help me. More diagrams may be added later.

This post deals with situations where Black played a wedge between two white
stones. KataGo and I both think the wedge moves were bad in these games, but
White still has the problem of answering correctly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 57 moves from file wrong-side-01-move058.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a B b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X X . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O O . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . X , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the above diagram, Black played the marked stone. I replied at a,
but KataGo thinks b is 1.4 points better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 69 moves from file wrong-side-02-move070.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X X . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O B O . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . X . X c X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X X . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O O . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . X , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the above diagram, Black played the marked stone. I replied at a,
hoping to poke through at c but KataGo thinks b is 1.8 points better.
After b, Katago wants White to play a series of forcing moves against
Black's top-right corner in order to live locally.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 35 moves from file wrong-side-03-move036.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O a X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O B O . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the above diagram, I played a in answer to the marked
stone, but KataGo thinks b is 3.9 points better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 51 moves from file wrong-side-04-move052.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O B O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . b . . . , . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X , . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the above diagram, I played a in answer to the marked,
stone, but KataGo thinks b is 1.2 points better.

Review

One might say that "reading is the answer", but what if one's reading is inconclusive?

Perhaps I should work out what feels right and then play on the opposite side.
(I have other unpublished examples that support this counsel of despair.)

More seriously, I may have been thinking that my first stone should be played
so as to interfere with the opponent's shape. This is sometimes useful, as in the
third diagram, but I should think first about finding and protecting
weaknesses in my own shapes. A rule of thumb which fits all the published cases is
"Play on the outside", if one can work out which side that is.

Minor Edits for clarity, 8 April 2021

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 Post subject: Re: Retraining the Neural Network in My Head - Part 1
Post #2 Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:21 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 287
Liked others: 38
Was liked: 244
Rank: UK 2d Dec15
KGS: mathmo 4d
IGS: mathmo 4d
These first two problems seem pretty difficult. I don't know if my answers are correct.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . c 9 . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 O 7 4 . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . 0 O 6 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 B 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . d . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X X . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O O . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . X , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w5: at B (but it's painful)
c,d can follow but black only has ko for life.
The spirit of a is to ask for a smaller capture. However, the danger is that in making such a weak stone, it might no longer capture the opponent. My first instinct was :b6: at :w7: but it doesn't seem to work with B's liberty shortage. So it isn't as bad as I feared it to be. I suppose white has something ok or else a can't be only 1.5 points worse than b.
In the diagram, the ko isn't so great for black even though it is easy to live with local ko threats. As white's shape isn't so bad as long as white captures at G16.

If you played b, this variation becomes impossible but I am unsure if this is really what KG fears. Perhaps black's connection in the game was best.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . g . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 O d . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O 6 4 c . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O 2 5 O X e . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 7 B 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X X . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O O . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . X , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w9: connects
This is still aji but not so spectacular. Perhaps c-g follows.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 4 . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 2 B 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X X . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O O O . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . X , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is bad aji everywhere, but for the time being as long as white can hold out, black has just sacrificed more stones and doesn't even have many liberties. Black can certainly profit somewhere, either living in the corner or getting thicker on the outside, but this is limited if it doesn't actually win the fight. White's wall has lots of liberties, but it looks very risky in the centre. So maybe :w3: is better at :b4:.

Overall the reading is too difficult for me to really judge this position.


Next diagram - difficult. Black's area is almost closed and your stones don't have much eyespace. The wedge normally helps you. If you play at a, black can still get both b and c which isn't such a failure for black as you were threatening to wedge at c already in some lines (with some attachments against the shimari first), and b is still an important point to get rid of your eyespace. If you play b, black's shape has become thicker, but there are still things to exploit. It looks like white has two cutting points, but even if you tenuki now, it isn't easy for black to cut either side. Still, most likely it is best to defend the cutting point but I'm not sure how. Just connecting to the left of b comes to mind, though it feels slow. The tiger mouth attachment is probably better, but reading is required. White can probably be happy to live big in the corner and sacrifice the one space jumps in several variations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 X 6 8 X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O B O 5 7 . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . 3 1 4 0 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X , . c . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

perhaps c next
This seems easier to explain. If you play a, then black can connect and you can't capture the cutting stone so black has made a giant moyo. You have wasted a move at a playing off a strong group slowly cutting where B has had time to make strength.

If you play b, black's group on the left is weak, and has no move to lean on W's thick centre nobi on the left. So it is probably bad for B to connect at a (such a stone is low on liberties and still weak). W would only have to solidly connect to the left of b. Perhaps B will undercut the lower left shimari instead. Later B can consider squeezing to the right of b.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O B O 0 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 3 1 4 6 . , . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . 9 . . X O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . X 7 . . . . . X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . c . . O X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X , . . X . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

maybe c next
Black has a bunch of forcing moves above, so playing a to leave 2 cutting points is risky. It does put pressure on black to find a good sequence because it is quite tight for black to both get out and keep the connection. Also, b is a big move anyway for B because it is a key point for expanding their moyo.

If you play b and B gets a, you still have to defend the cut, probably on the left, but it is difficult for black to take the other cutting point as b's shape isn't solid on the left even leading to a number of cutting points below (as W's lower left corner is very solid), and B just pushes W into B's moyo when W has some eyespace on the left. But if W has time to defend the cut, W is making miai of attacking the B group above and going deeper into the moyo.

In my diagram, :w3: might be better at :w7: or D9.


This post by dhu163 was liked by 2 people: marvin, thirdfogie
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