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 Post subject: Proper term for "one space descent"
Post #1 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:06 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B One space descent
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


How would we properly call this move? It's not a jump, I think, because jumping is done towards the center. Is it a descent? Is it then a "one space descent"?


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 Post subject: Re: Proper term for "one space descent"
Post #2 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:29 am 
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Wow that is a really funny way of argumentation, but I dont remember there would be any ither word for that one

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 Post subject: Re: Proper term for "one space descent"
Post #3 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:38 am 
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tobisagari - https://www.godictionary.net/term/tobisagari.html

I'd say that "jump" defaults to a 1-space jump. So you can just say "jumps down." Here there are two ways down but if the diagram is shown it's no problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper term for "one space descent"
Post #4 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:54 am 
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Quote:
How would we properly call this move? It's not a jump, I think, because jumping is done towards the center. Is it a descent? Is it then a "one space descent"?


Assuming you are accepting the usual terms template in which Japanese forms are the starting point, this is most certainly a tobi. As are sideways jumps and jumps along the first line. There is nothing directional in the Japanese. The direction is usually not specified because it is too obvious, but if you really want to, the above is called tobisagari. The commonest sideways form is a right angle from a vertical jump and that is called a magari, but can also be called tobimagari or magaritobi, depending on what you want to emphasise (magari is not limited to the tight bend, as in Shuei's L shapes, incidentally, as many people think). A tobi towards the centre is usually not further specified, but can be, e.g. tobinuki is a jump running out between two enemy groups in a running fight. There are other kinds of tobi, of course. And there is tobi and tobi. Tobi in go is 飛び, but in the long-jump and high-jump in athletics it is 跳び (i.e. a leap).

The Chinese is similarly non-directional, guan 关 referring to making a barrier. This usage makes a lot more sense when group tax (and thus the need to block connections) applies.

If you are limiting it to English, it's a non-question for a native speaker. We just use adverbial verbs, such as jump down, jump up. jump into, etc. But you can have a debate as to whether skip is marginally better than jump (to avoid connotations of leap, so that it can be assumed a tobi is normally one space). Ikken tobi is much more common in English than in Japanese, where just tobi is usually preferred.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper term for "one space descent"
Post #5 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:56 pm 
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What makes this difficult to me is that I interpret the question to ask for a noun when I'd maybe say 'black closes the corner' and show the move. 'One space descent' sounds overly complicated and wordy to me, maybe something one might try to avoid saying and writing. I have seen some pro games utilizing the move in question (relayed on Pandanet) but these games don't seem to make it into the online databases and those continue to give the impression that this isn't played at all.

My copy of a Chinese-English dictionary of weiqi terms has entries for both 跳 and 关 as well as words containing both. The English and Chinese for the 关 entry doesn't match so I am unsure about interpreting it based on my lousy Chinese or Google translate, it does seem to say that 跳 and 关 are interchangeable in modern usage while still delving into differences and elsewhere it says that 单关 and 小跳 can be confused. The Chinese does speak of direction toward the center or the side in the entry for 单关, while the English explicitly clarifies "i.e. not downwards". The English text in the 关 entry only points to the entry for 跳.


I personally feel there is always ambiguity about direction terms, or should I say a gray area, when you play in the corner. Another interesting move of similar ilk that is harder to call a jump is this one. In L19 tradition of reductionism I ask: what is this called?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B One space move
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . O .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Proper term for "one space descent"
Post #6 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:11 pm 
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kvasir wrote:
I personally feel there is always ambiguity about direction terms, or should I say a gray area, when you play in the corner. Another interesting move of similar ilk that is harder to call a jump is this one. In L19 tradition of reductionism I ask: what is this called?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B One space move
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . O .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

tsuketobisagaritobijimari

By the way, does this enclosure work well enough?

I've learned against by playing:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . 2 . 1 .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


But was taught:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 .
$$ | . . . . 2 a . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Proper term for "one space descent"
Post #7 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:13 pm 
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It doesn't work very well if white's outside stones are strong and won't suffer when black gets more stones on the outside. I think it is still more common in pro play than the keima because this shape tends to happen in fighting positions when attacking the corner will backfire. I think I remember learning the keima was a Lee Changho move (maybe this was not meant literally or I remember incorrectly) and could be criticized for being overly secure about the corner. I don't find any games by Lee Changho so this could be faulty memory. The latest trend is probably not keimasagarijimari(?) or tobisagarijimari but tenuki.

I think people and computers are utilizing this aji at an opportune moment, also indirectly by peeping from the outside.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . 1 . . O .
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]



I think the weakness in this diagram is not the 3-3 but outside forcing moves and endgame, i.e. "a" and "b". The 3-3 looks dead to my eyes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . a X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . O .
$$ | . . . . . b . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Proper term for "one space descent"
Post #8 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:22 pm 
Oza
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So it's tobi, or more precisely tobisagari and in English "jump down" (which I would not expect as a non-native speaker - I would think you can only go down if you jump off something). I was also under the impression that for strong connections there is a directional indication, where nobi is sideways or upwards but when towards the edge it's a sagari. I'm not very strong in (Japanese) terms.

Thanks all for the discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper term for "one space descent"
Post #9 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:01 pm 
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Sometimes when you read about something then you notice it more.
I saw 一間トビ on the Sumire match chat.

By the way, "jump down" is something I say to my kids but I don't know when else it would be used in real life.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper term for "one space descent"
Post #10 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:01 am 
Oza

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Quote:
So it's tobi, or more precisely tobisagari and in English "jump down" (which I would not expect as a non-native speaker - I would think you can only go down if you jump off something). I was also under the impression that for strong connections there is a directional indication, where nobi is sideways or upwards but when towards the edge it's a sagari. I'm not very strong in (Japanese) terms.


Over the years, both posts here and on SL have indicated to me that many people are prone to be annoyed by discussion of go terms, and also even to take offence at contradictory points of view. Numbers guys tend to be irritated by lack of precision. Words guys tend to be irritated by the false precision that numbers guys try to impose. Splitting the world into numbers guys and words guys in itself is a form of imprecision that probably irritates numbers guys, but for words guys it neatly encapsulates the whole point.

To lower the temperature somewhat, let me first give a tale from last night. A lady mentioned that she had gone to a lot of trouble organising a church event and was disappointed when only three people turned up. The explanation was that British Summer Time had just come into force, overnight, but it hadn't registered with most people and they were still a-bed, or whatever. A chap then replied that it really irritates him that on the occasion of this clock change weather forecasters always sign off with inaccurate sentences such as "Don't forget to put your clocks forward. You'll be getting an extra hour of daylight." Another lady looked shocked, and asked "What's wrong with that?" Knowing that this chap was a metallurgist (and a numbers guy), I interjected, "Because it lops off an hour at the end." He beamed, and said, "Precisely!" But I then told him I agreed with both the weather forecasters and the shocked lady, because the context is what matters. It's a nice feeling to wake up in the light rather than the dark and that is what "extra hour" is referring to - as we all know! (Just as when I said "at the end" and the precisionist didn't have to ask me "at the end of what?")

Even "context" is a little imprecise. It's more like common sense but in the sense that it's a sense that's common to all of us. And I expect all but the most perverse numbers guys to know what I mean by that.

A simple example from daily life (i.e. common in yet another sense): recipes often tell you to add a pinch of salt or a knob of butter, but also tell you exactly how many ounces of flour to add. The precisionists would love to know how many grains of salt is meant by a pinch, and I can easily imagine they go goggle-eyed when the recipe says "add TWO knobs of butter", deliciously mixing up precision and imprecision. I believe there's barely a cook in any country who would be discombobulated by such a recipe.

Now, this same, strange dichotomy between precision (or, more accurately, false precision) and imprecision exists in go terms. Outside of contexts such as devising computer algorithms, go terms are inverted by words guys. They are meant as words, not numbers. Therefore, a wider context or common usage can always be assumed, and likewise imprecision in the context or usage can also be assumed. So long as it works most of the time (e.g. when no nit-picking numbers guy is around) or for the most part, that's fine.

So, when a go writer says "tobi" he is not expressing a definition. Instead, he is trying (imperfectly perhaps) to convey a movement, a change of pace, a function or whatever, and he would be perfectly happy if someone else used a different term, so long as the same idea was conveyed.

Our writer, however, may wish to add a bit of what we might call precision, but not purely for precision's sake. Rather he wants to add colour or emphasis, or to avoid ambiguity. This is done by feel, not by reference to a definition.

Applying this to tobi, we have the following examples.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . X . .
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

This White 1 is described in Japanese as tobiKOMI (e.g. by Kitani in his joseki dictionary).


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . . X . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . X . .
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

But in this case the usual term would be tobiSAGARI. The context has changed. White has made a previous move up towards the centre. Sagari (downwards) emphasises the (perhaps surprising) change of direction, or contrast.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . O . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . O
$$ | . . . 1 . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

This is another example of tobikomi. Not being a numbers guy, I can't be sure how they would assess this, but even in English (jump in) I suspect they would feel that that focus is on "in" (i.e. jump IN). In any case the focus in Japanese is on the -komi. My impression is that the sort of people who write SL entries would feel that in tobikomi the emphasis is on TOBI and a tobikomi is a just flavour of tobi, yet that's wrong. Surely in actual play even they would sense that in the example above "in" is the important word. Size doesn't matter with words.

Of course even accepting that observation doesn't solve all the problems. In the earlier example, English speakers might well not feel that it really is a "jump in" - into what? But -komi in Japanese does not quite overlap with ordinary "in" in English. It often has a stronger feeling of "in-between", and so is emphasising, with an idea of something like separation. Translators sometimes try to convey this more forceful nuance with hanekomi, for example, by rendering it (not always accurately) as "hane inSIDE" (it's really a wedge and "hane inside" can, paradoxically, often be better used for hanedashi).

This application of verbal-noun suffixes such as -komi, -dashi, -tsuke and the like applies to other terms, of course. It can be, in a way, even more complex. First off, there is the obvious point that there may not even be a suffix. A hanesagari is not a hane downwards, it is a hane THEN a sagari (likewise in hanetsugi, for example). But complexity comes in also when you consider that the first term can also vary. This is especially so with the term nobi that Dieter mentions.

The rule of thumb is that a nobi (a stretching move where a stone is added at the end of a line of stones of the same colour) is used for moves parallel to the edge of the board, sagari for moves down towards the edge, and tachi for moves near sides but up towards the centre. Within the centre area, where the geography of the board loses focus, plain old nobi is used. However, when the idea of movement or function is being stressed, and verbal suffixes such as -komi are insufficient, the term nobi can be transmogrified into things like hau (crawl) or sou (follow along), and so on. It is the writer's decision what to use, not the decision of a lexicographer or SL editor.

To give a couple more examples. One for tobi (in a way), and one for nobi.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . O .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

This is called just a shimari in Japanese. To say something like tobisagarijimari sounds just as comical in Japanese as "jump-down corner enclosure" does in English. The writer is just pointing out the corner is being shimari-ed or shut off - c'est tout. But, if for some obscure reason, you wanted to emphasise the shape, I'd be pretty sure it would be tobimagari (or magaritobi) rather than tobisagari.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . .
$$ | . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

In this case Black 1 is called a nobikiri, but can be a tachikiri. The point is, it is the -kiri part that it is important. If you give a definition of this in Japanese, you would have to say Black is sticking his "head" in (to the centre, or White's sphere of influence). The more idiomatic English "sticking his nose in" might convey the nuances better, but in any case -kiri is (as usual) adding more a sense of intrusive assertiveness rather than any notion of cutting.

For Dieter, even with English adverbial nouns such as "jump down", it is often the adverbial part that matters most (like -kiri above). To take a very simplistic "flavour-free" example first, imagine you are a teacher and both you and a pupil each have a book open at the same page and you are trying to get his attention on a particular phrase, but he is groping for it. From his eyes you might sense he needs to look lower down the page, so you might say "jump down a little bit". The metaphorical "jump" is really irrelevant here. You could just as easily say "skip down", "scan down", "skim down", "move down" etc, etc. The important bit is "down". But there is no special nuance to down here.

Now take an example where down is still the important word but jump has its real sense.

You are leading your little girl by the hand as she bravely walks along a wall. You reach the end of the wall. Then you might say, "Can you be really brave and jump down?" You would not say "can you jump" because she would probably just do a little hop on the wall. You want to emphasise jump, but down still has the edge in importance.

But, as expected, your little girl gets braver by the day and mother may see her on the wall without your guiding hand. Mother might scream, "Get down from that wall!!!" Down is not only the important word, it has acquired a VERY strong connotation of NOT UP and on the pavement.

We have to consider the Japanese verbal suffixes like -sagari, -komi, -dashi in exactly the same flavoursome way. But unfortunately, for SL editors and others, Japanese flavours are usually not quite the same as English flavours, and even British English flavours are not always the same as American English flavours.

However, there is no need to despair. Just follow most people in real life and embrace imprecision, and scorn false precision.

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