Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/ |
|
Defend while making territory http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19077 |
Page 1 of 1 |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Defend while making territory |
In the topic "What are the worst mistakes" I hinted at a heuristic I have discovered - at least for myself, calling it a "proverb" would be presumptuous - defend while making territory. In close association to that I dare suggesting another one: Here's the position at move 120 in the 1d-2d game I talked about in the same topic. White has played ![]() Let's assess territories first, using multiples of 5 Upper left: a white corner which might still be invaded or reduced by a lot, depending on Black's strength; let's estimate it conservatively at 5 Upper side: a stable 10 point territory for White Upper right: a stable 5 point corner for Black Right side: a stable 15 point territory for White Lower right: a 40 point corner for Black, including the 4 captured stones, which induce some aji (see below) Lower left: a stable 15 point corner for White Left side: depends on Black's response; if passive defense it's a 15 point territory; l Let's count 5 points komi for White Both have a somewhat floating group in the center: Black's dragon on the upper side and White's group on the lower side. Let's not count any points for them yet. Let's not discount anything either, for they're not weak. Black's has some eye shape and has moved out towards friendly stones. White has an eye at A in sente and central influence This puts Black +10 which is indeed AI Sensei's score estimation. Obviously ![]() Now, how do you assess this situation? I'll discuss the proceedings and my newfound heuristics in later posts. |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Defend while making territory |
18 moves later and the action has been mostly in the center. The players are arguing whether Black can indeed capture the original reduction stone, without getting into trouble with his top group: The argument is complex, as usual with central fighting. Analysis with AI Sensei points out that both players may be missing out on simplifying the problem while also ignoring another important area. Looking at the black dragon differently: The neglected area |
Author: | jlt [ Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:02 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Defend while making territory |
Knotwilg wrote: In this position I would play ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:48 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Defend while making territory |
jlt wrote: Knotwilg wrote: In this position I would play ![]() ![]() Your reasoning is perfectly according to my own intuition but it's precisely what I'm trying to correct. I/we have a tendency to think about central connectivity and separation, while in such situations small looking moves at the side are more profitable: This is not AI Sensei's "best for both" but it drives the point: if Black bails out of the surrounding maneuver started with ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Black can surely continue the chase but it's a difficult quest. Instead Black could defend first, then take one of the big points for himself. |
Author: | kvasir [ Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Defend while making territory |
Defending like this looks like a fallback move to me. Something you can play if you don't figure out the situation. In this case it's accepting that white played a forcing move, probably a badly timed one but we won't challenge it and instead just get on with the game, he could probably have played this earlier anyway. I have argued with people if this is the right approach, I think it often is for the reason that a game like that is usually only some practice and the risk of losing a long game because of a fallback move has to be weighted against the benefit of playing to the end. Being able to come up with good fallback moves is probably a useful skill, it helps with keeping your chances alive. My mind might be contaminated since after seeing the comments about point losses in the game in another thread I looked for the game and checked it in katrain. Still I will offer my understanding. I want to play like this, admittedly I saw ![]() I think white would be overly optimistic to jump down and separate black, that could be much harder for white than black. One should probably read farther than 5 moves ![]() Of course I get stuck checking some trouble variation if I try to read it to the end. For example I considered push and cut and I will make diagrams for the amusement value. My conclusion is that I agree with the suggested move because I can't do more than consider a few trouble variations (and realistically accept that there must be some errors) and it is a sort of a move I'd maybe make anyway if white had timed his move better. I'm not sure this is an example of defending while making territory, maybe black position is weaker if we can't help simply defend territory and I doubt black is "making" new territory by simply defending. I think it is an example of falling back to a safe move, which risks losing a long game instead of risking to lose in a few moves. |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Defend while making territory |
You are right, the fallback move is a "can't figure it out and I'm ahead anyway move". It's not AI Sensei's suggestion. That is: Play on the sides and let White figure out how he wants to continue in the center. Myself I had another idea I played ![]() ![]() ![]() It's tempting to draw generic lessons from a specific case but I see a pattern in my analyses, that when the center is too complex to figure out, it's probably dame in a way and the sides are not only simpler but also more valuable. |
Author: | gennan [ Thu Mar 09, 2023 4:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Defend while making territory |
Knotwilg wrote: when the center is too complex to figure out, it's probably dame in a way and the sides are not only simpler but also more valuable. Ineed. I think this is one of the lessons I got from being a member of InSeong Hwang's go school a few years ago: 3rd line endgame moves are big, bigger than center plays in many cases. it's just that 3rd line endgame plays (like H3 in your position) are often gote and they just don't look as flashy as center plays. Also, good endgame is more important than many players think. A good opening may be more interesting, but a good endgame probably makes a bigger difference in practice. For decades, I didn't care much about the endgame. I felt it was boring. But I started to pay more attention to my endgame in recent years (by advice of InSeong) and I'd say that pays off more in terms of results than playing a "brilliant" opening. I have even come to the conclusion that the opening is overrated. |
Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |