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Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2244		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  tchan001 [ Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
On page 42, regarding the 23rd Fujitsu Cup Semifinal between Piao Wenyao vs Yi Se-tol, it says

Quote:
Black could avoid a fight by playing 1 in Dia. 4 This move secures the corner while ensuring a link-up with his stones below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |[/go]
Dia. 4

I don't understand how move 1 ensures a link-up with his stones below. Can someone please show me how this works.
Author:  Solomon [ Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
I think they meant "threatening". If White blocks, then clearly they are disconnected. However, it's not easy for White to make such a move because it looks heavy given what I can see and gives Black sente (so Black gets the corner fo FREE). Hence, because White finds it difficult to find the timing to block at S14, Black has, in a sense, connected with his group.
Author:  tchan001 [ Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
Thanks Araban, must be a dan thing cause as a kyu, I'd probably block and see what happens later on. lol
Author:  mitsun [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
tchan001 wrote:
Thanks Araban, must be a dan thing cause as a kyu, I'd probably block and see what happens later on. lol
In the original position, the two B groups are disconnected, and W can invade the corner at R17. If the exchange S15-S14 occurs, the two B groups are still disconnected, but B has completely secured the corner. W cannot let B make a large gain like this in sente. Since W should therefore play elsewhere, B has the option of connecting his two groups later.
Author:  GoCat [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
Araban wrote:
I think they meant "threatening". If White blocks, then clearly they are disconnected. However, it's not easy for White to make such a move because it looks heavy given what I can see and gives Black sente (so Black gets the corner fo FREE). Hence, because White finds it difficult to find the timing to block at S14, Black has, in a sense, connected with his group.


mitsun wrote:
In the original position, the two B groups are disconnected, and W can invade the corner at R17. If the exchange S15-S14 occurs, the two B groups are still disconnected, but B has completely secured the corner. W cannot let B make a large gain like this in sente. Since W should therefore play elsewhere, B has the option of connecting his two groups later.


These are great examples of how dan-level players think differently than kyu-level players. Thanks to both of you for this!
Author:  entropi [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
As a kyu player, I would also definitely block. The opportuinty to attack q14 group looks very attractive for black.

But it is very interesting to see how strong players think.
If you don't mind spending a couple of minutes for a further explanation, I would like ask Araban and/or Mitsun the following two questions:

1- Even after your explanations, I still fail to see why a black attack against q14 stones is not important. I understand that it's painful for white that black gets the corner in sente, but is it enough reason to ignore black's chance to attack from a connected (thus strong) base, or is there another reason why the q14 stones are unimportant.

2- Does what you say hold regardless of whether the p9 r9 stones are strong or not? (the lower half of the board is not included in the original post)

Thanks in advance
Author:  quantumf [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
White is already heavy after playing S14, and black can then play at P13, pretty much in sente, to (a) improve his shape and (b) make white even heavier
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
entropi wrote:
As a kyu player, I would also definitely block. The opportuinty to attack q14 group looks very attractive for black.

But it is very interesting to see how strong players think.
If you don't mind spending a couple of minutes for a further explanation, I would like ask Araban and/or Mitsun the following two questions:

1- Even after your explanations, I still fail to see why a black attack against q14 stones is not important. I understand that it's painful for white that black gets the corner in sente, but is it enough reason to ignore black's chance to attack from a connected (thus strong) base, or is there another reason why the q14 stones are unimportant.


One of the most important rules for getting stronger:

Never, never, never try to kill a group, unless you are sure you have read out every variation, and are sure you will succeed. In an open position like this, there is no guaranteed way to kill those P11/R11 black stones.

Instead of trying to kill them, you want to attack stones.

Now think to yourself:

1. If those P11/R11 stones are going to live anyway, in what way would I prefer them to live?

Does "By connecting on the second line in gote" sound good?

2. If those P11/R11 stones are going to live anyway, what is a valuable move to get in return?

Are you thinking "I want that dame point at S14" or would you prefer some moves in the center like O13 and N11?

Quote:
2- Does what you say hold regardless of whether the p9 r9 stones are strong or not? (the lower half of the board is not included in the original post)

Thanks in advance


In this position, white is quite thin in the upper right, so the strength of those stones is not really important. Of course it will influence how any ensuing fight goes, but it doesn't make S14 possible no matter how strong they are.
Author:  entropi [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
Herman, thanks a lot for the reply. It makes perfectly sense and it touches precisely a point which confuses me all the time in my games.

In fact I was not exactly meaning killing (or attacking) the black stones at p11-r11. I was more concerned about black's attack on the q14 white group.

When I look at the position, my kyu eyes see two groups (white o15 and black p11 groups) that are likely to start a running fight. My immediate intuition is that if white allows black to connect, it becomes not a running fight but an alone floating baseless white group. It would probably not die, but black could gain a lot by attacking it either from above or from below.
So I probably expect white to somehow (but not at s14 :)) reinforce the q14 group now.

Anyway that was my line of thought when saying that I would block at s14. This discussion was enlightening for me indeed. Thank you all.
Author:  Menezes [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
I think that's one of my biggest problems: when to ignore a threat and go get something else. Sometimes I do it, and when I have a higher graded player review the game for me, he or she says I shouldn't have done tenuki. When I DON'T tenuki, I hear that I should have... It's not easy for a kyu player, at least not for me, to figure out what may be bigger... Sometimes losing a lot of stones to get another big point is good, but other times, losing the same amount of stones is just simply stupidity...
Author:  The Pilgrim [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can't figure out comment from game in Go World #123
To give a piece of advice on how to know if it's good to throw away stones to get a bigger point :

- give away stones if they don't cut 2 groups (I'm mean really cutting, the 2 groups has no other way to connect, so you will be able to attack the 2 groups if you save the cutting stones)
- give away stones if they cut 2 living groups (the stones have no use, and you will be the one under attack by the end)
- give away stones if you're sure they are dead. There will be maybe some interesting aji later on. If you desesperatly try to save them, you will surely destroy all the aji.

This is an advice of my teacher, and it helps me a lot to choose stones that I can treat lightly and maybe sacrifice in order to get much better !
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