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Tsumego from a game.
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2313		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Tsumego from a game.
Club game from last night (from memory). I'm black, two stones vs. AGA 4d.

I'm posting for the nice tsumego at move 52 and 157. Enjoy.

[sgf-full](;CA[Windows-1252]AB[pd]AP[MultiGo:4.4.4]SZ[19]AB[dp]MULTIGOGM[1]
;W[de];B[pp];W[cn];B[fp];W[dj];B[cc];W[ec];B[ce];W[cf];B[df];W[cd];B[be];W[cg];B[dd]
;W[ee];B[dc];W[ed];B[nc];W[hq];B[kq];W[ho];B[fn];W[ko];B[lp];W[hm];B[fl];W[fj];B[bo]
;W[eq];B[ep];W[fq];B[gp];W[ir];B[pn];W[qq];B[qp];W[pq];B[rq];W[rr];B[rp];W[nq];B[np]
;W[mp];B[mo];W[op];B[mq];W[no];B[oo];W[mp];B[nn];W[nr];B[np]C[Status\: Can white tenuki?]
;W[qi]C[Black to kill];B[sr];W[rs];B[ps]C[I played it out of order];W[pr];B[qg]
;W[ql];B[pk];W[rj];B[pi];W[pj];B[oj];W[ph];B[oi];W[qh];B[oh];W[pg];B[hp];W[ip];B[io]
;W[jp];B[jn];W[in];B[jo];W[km];B[im];W[jm];B[hn];W[kn];B[go];W[il];B[jq];W[iq];B[kp]
;W[in];B[ho];W[cr];B[hk];W[gl];B[gk];W[fk];B[gm];W[ik];B[hj];W[hl];B[ij];W[el];B[fm]
(;W[jj];B[ji];W[kj];B[ih];W[ki];B[kh];W[lh];B[kg];W[mj];B[lk]C[M13 woud be so much better for me; I was too focused on killing]
;W[lg];B[li];W[lj];B[mi];W[kf];B[jg];W[mk];B[mh];W[mf];B[nf];W[ne];B[of];W[md];B[ie]
;W[mc];B[oc];W[oe];B[pe];W[pf];B[mg]C[-1 liberty];W[lf];B[ol];W[nl];B[nm];W[nj]
;B[qj]C[Also -1 liberty];W[og];B[pl];W[mm];B[ng];W[ni];B[nh];W[jf];B[if];W[hg];B[ig]
;W[ic];B[jd];W[jc];B[kc];W[kb];B[kd];W[lb]
(;B[qf];W[rg];B[rf];W[rh]C[Black to kill.];B[sg]C[Not like this...];W[si];B[rm]
;W[rl];B[qm];W[sk];B[hh];W[gg];B[gh];W[qc];B[rd];W[pc];B[qd];W[rc];B[od];W[ob];B[nb]
;W[oa];B[sf];W[sh];B[sd];W[qb];B[re];W[co];B[dq];W[dr];B[cp];W[bn];B[dm];W[en];B[dn]
;W[eo];B[do];W[em];B[dl];W[ek];B[bp];W[bl];B[ck];W[bk];B[cj];W[bi];B[bj];W[aj];B[ci]
;W[bh];B[eh]C[Somehow we made a ko here which I screwed up, but I don't remember how.])))[/sgf-full]
Author:  Apoah [ Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
My take on 157 is a hane at s9.

Wr9 - atari
Bs8 - atari
Wq10 - capture/atari
Bp9 - connect

I think then it will be a ko or w will connect at r10 and then b will try to squeeze him down.

Or am I missing something crucial?

:)
Author:  cyclops [ Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
Apoah wrote:
My take on 157 is a hane at s9.

Wr9 - atari
Bs8 - atari
Wq10 - capture/atari
Bp9 - connect

I think then it will be a ko or w will connect at r10 and then b will try to squeeze him down.

Or am I missing something crucial?

:)


I don't think there will be a ko. He cannot capture any b stones you played so he is left with a dead shape.

edit: I had a double negation where I meant one.
Author:  cyclops [ Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  overkill
w can't tenuki at w53 ( I think )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X O X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 2 O O X . |
$$ . . 5 4 O 1 3 9 O 7 |
$$ . . . 0 . . 6 . 8 . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Next b has a quick and a slow way to kill. If not w10 b will kill there.

Some more variations:

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]AP[Drago:3.00.02]SZ[13]AB[lk][lj][kj][jj][ii][hj][gk][ek][fj][hi]AW[ij][hk][hl][jk][kk][ll];B[il]
;W[ik]C[lest b kills corner];B[jl]
(;W[gl];B[fl]
(;W[jm];B[ml]
(;W[lm];B[kl]
;W[gm]C[lest b kills there. But now b can kill in 2 ways. Quickly or slowly.];B[im])
(;W[km];B[gm])
(;W[gm];B[lm];W[kl];B[im]))
(;W[im];B[gm]
(;W[ml];B[kl])
(;W[km];B[ml]))
(;W[gm];B[kl])
(;W[kl];B[ml]
(;W[lm];B[jm];W[gm];B[im])
(;W[jm];B[lm];W[gm];B[im]))
(;W[ml];B[kl]))
(;W[jm];B[ml]
(;W[km];B[gl])
(;W[gl]
;B[fl]C[already discussed]))
(;W[ml]
;B[kl]C[3 lib's against 2])
(;W[lm];B[ml];W[gl];B[fl]
(;W[gm];B[im];W[jm];B[kl])
(;W[jm];B[kl];W[gm];B[im])
(;W[im];B[gm])
(;W[kl];B[jm];W[gm];B[im])))[/sgf-full]

edit: I think b54 in the game is also correct. But b56 lets w of the hook. Should be at p2.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X O X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 5 O O X . |
$$ . . . . O a 4 . O 1 |
$$ . . . . . . 3 b 2 . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


After :b5:, a and b are miai for killing.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
I would've played the first one like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X O X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 3 O O X . |
$$ . . . . O 4 5 6 O 1 |
$$ . . . . . . 7 . 2 . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X 6 X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 8 O O X . |
$$ . . . 9 O O 5 7 O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


Herman's variation appears to work as well.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
Dusk Eagle wrote:
I would've played the first one like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X O X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 3 O O X . |
$$ . . . . O 4 5 6 O 1 |
$$ . . . . . . 7 . 2 . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X 6 X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 8 O O X . |
$$ . . . 9 O O 5 7 O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


Herman's variation appears to work as well.


Yes, there are several ways to kill it, you can also capture first, before the hane in the corner.

My intention was to show it could still be killed after the game sequence, but I guess I was wrong, because this works for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X O X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 5 O O X . |
$$ . . . . O . 4 . O 1 |
$$ . . . . . 6 3 . 2 . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
Both problems illustrate the principle of restricting eye-space. :)

BTW, can't Black kill at move 159?
Author:  cyclops [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
Bill Spight wrote:
Both problems illustrate the principle of restricting eye-space. :)

BTW, can't Black kill at move 159?


OC, and you knew it;) ( Suddenly I discovered what OC stands for ).

BTW if b extends at C11 at move 200 wouldn't he "easily" connect to either the NW or the center thereby killing w's side resp w's center. w is quite short in liberties on both sides. B's bending move at 200 reduces his own liberties.

Thx Daniel for your braveness to share this game with us.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
HermanHiddema wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X O X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 5 O O X . |
$$ . . . . O a 4 . O 1 |
$$ . . . . . . 3 b 2 . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


After :b5:, a and b are miai for killing.


3 and 5 have to be played in the other order (Dusk Eagle's 5 looks like it works, too, instead of 3 here). I actually read this out correctly in the game and then played in the wrong order. :oops:

Bill: yeah, true, at 159 it's not too late. But 157 doesn't really help any. The second problem I got totally confused on in the game because I was somehow thinking there was going to be a ko even though it's obvious there won't be-- I think I was giving white an extra move in my head.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: overkill
cyclops wrote:
w can't tenuki at w53 ( I think )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X O X X X . |
$$ . X . X O . O O X . |
$$ . . . . O 1 . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


Yes, this seems to work too. Nice job.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
Dusk Eagle, Cyclops:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X O X X X . |
$$ . X . X O . O O X . |
$$ . . . . O 1 2 . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


How does black kill after this?
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
Sometimes the simplest move is the easiest to overlook:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X . X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 3 O O X . |
$$ . . . . O 1 2 . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Sometimes the simplest move is the easiest to overlook:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X . X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 3 O O X . |
$$ . . . . O 1 2 . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X 5 X X X . |
$$ . X . X O X O O X . |
$$ . . . . O X O . O 6 |
$$ . . . . . 4 9 7 8 . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
Oh. Didn't think about just connecting, lol.
Author:  Wildclaw [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game.
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Sometimes the simplest move is the easiest to overlook:


Talking about simple moves. Looks like no one in here follows the principle presented in Fundamentals of Go, "The first fundamental rule for killing enemy groups is to narrow their eyespace" and "First check the fundamental rule. If it works, you need look no further"

In this case reducing eyespace is enough for black to kill.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X O X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 5 O O X . |
$$ . . . 3 O . 4 . O 1 |
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


Although to be fair, for me, playing 5 as a placement to expand the inner eye is kind of easier to read due to resulting in a common dead l&d position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ , . X , X O X X X . |
$$ . X . X O 6 O O X . |
$$ . . . 3 O . 4 . O 1 |
$$ . . . . 8 7 9 5 2 . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]
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