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Prokovich Game #2
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2314
Page 1 of 4

Author:  Goceman86 [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Prokovich Game #2

i love the prokovich idea and decided to start one more for the people who just joined or want to start another game from the beginning and for people who to look at 2 games and give their ideas

anyways all the same rules.



The rules for you:

* Feel free to both comment on the move just played and make predictions about the following moves.
* Comments from all levels of player are welcome. Often the most educational comments come from stronger players reacting to weaker players' thoughts.
* Don't spoil the fun by looking up the game! And if you can't help yourself, don't tell anyone here.
* Please Seal your prediction

The rules for me:

* I'll try to make about 2 posts a day, unless the sequence is correctly guessed by 3 or more people.
* I wont look at the next move either until its time to post.



ok here i decided to go straight to the 5th move so lets get the ball rolling.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Moves 1-5
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Jordus [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Moves 1-5
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . b c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


white will play for the corner at a, or pincer at b or c... Pincering at B or C prevents the kobayashi opening... a is probably too passive because of the following example.....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Moves 1-5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 7 . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


*EDIT* Forgot my hide tags.... sorry :oops: hopefully I got them on fast enough...

Author:  Goceman86 [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

My Sealed

Im thinking white wont give black the enclosure so he will play at :wc:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Moves 1-2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Goceman86 [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

*EDIT* Forgot my hide tags.... sorry :oops: hopefully I got them on fast enough...[/quote]
hehe i saw it but its ok lol

Author:  Goceman86 [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

Jordus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Moves 1-5
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . b c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


white will play for the corner at a, or pincer at b or c... Pincering at B or C prevents the kobayashi opening... a is probably too passive because of the following example.....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Moves 1-5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 7 . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




My comment on your prediction
now that i saw yours i am leaning more on a 2 point pincer because i like fighting hehe :rambo:

Author:  Redundant [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

Are we doing hidden tags for comments then?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Moves 1-5
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a or b. Pros don't seem to care as much about preventing the mini or micro chinese as amateurs do. White doesn't need to play actively, as he already has komi. It's up to black to make his first move advantage enough to overcome that.

Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

That kakari is a long way from the 3-4 point, I'd prepare to attack it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Goceman86 [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

heres the last move of the day for me next move will be posted up sometime around 8am California, USA time (9hours from this post

Next move is
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Jordus [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . c . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . z . . X . W . d . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A or B are Blacks best moves me thinks... c or d don't work well now that white has played the pincer... I think Black will play A.... it sets up to take the corner at z... forces white to move to protect the corner and allows Black Sente...

Author:  Goceman86 [ Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

Redundant wrote:
Are we doing hidden tags for comments then?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Moves 1-5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a or b. Pros don't seem to care as much about preventing the mini or micro chinese as amateurs do. White doesn't need to play actively, as he already has komi. It's up to black to make his first move advantage enough to overcome that.


yeah your right we dont need to do hide tags for comments lol

Author:  Goceman86 [ Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

Next move is up and black decided to take the enclosure at the bottom right

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Goceman86 [ Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

got a quick question if white now decides to play F4 isnt both the groups connected and black in trouble a little bit?
i think the ecnlosure could have waited. any one at a higher lvl wanna give me their opinion on my thoughts and

heres my next sealed move

I myself would play a cuz i dont want him to pincer again on the right and start a huge fight

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . c . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . a b . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Redundant [ Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

One stone is aji. White f4 is a good move, but black need not respond locally to it. Black can decide to do something like this to build a big right side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Goceman86 [ Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

Redundant wrote:
One stone is aji. White f4 is a good move, but black need not respond locally to it. Black can decide to do something like this to build a big right side.


kool thx

Author:  Goceman86 [ Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

Next move White decided to take the right side

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Sano [ Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

I have no idea where a pro would play, but I'd probably play something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This way, if my opponent gets a base I get a base too, and my opponent has 2 4-4 stones and I have a stone on the lower left, while I have an enclosed corner on the lower right. It seems to me black would have an advantage here.

Author:  Jordus [ Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . z . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . e , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would play at (a)....

b or c is an option in response to whites last play but response to that stone isn't currently necessary I think.... One could theorize that if black plays d that he could follow up with a and e.... but only if white doesnt play the pincer at (y) or (z) in response to d.... the pincer would probably be the better response... so white would more than likely play that...

Author:  Marcus [ Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

My prediction:

This seems like a common continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Something like this ... I've seen things like this before ...

Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

my first instinct was that the lower kept was essential. I think I'll endorse that instinct, because I don't know of a good way for W to ensure sente so tat he can return to the right.

Author:  Goceman86 [ Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich Game #2

next move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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