Life In 19x19 :: Imitating Dan-level play

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Imitating Dan-level play http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2517	Page 1 of 1

Author: SoDesuNe [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:42 am ]

Post subject: Imitating Dan-level play

I saw this sequence played regulary in Dan-level games and thought the idea behind it was quite neat because now White won't make such a narrow extension to 'a' to threaten the base of my group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, now, I wanted to try it out and that is what happend:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, well, I see two options:
First, :b5:

was meant to be a forcing move in the first place, so I let this be unfinished and go back to the upper-left Joseki. If White plays "a" :b5:

still has Aji left. If White decides to check my left-side group with "b", well, there's a problem.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . a . . . c . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think, letting White Hane at "a" is just too good, so now I have play out the bottom Joseki.
A further thought goes to attacking White's stones at :w10:

but I was quite unsure, if I should dare this ^^

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 1 . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Admittedly, I become quite strong at the bottom and White has still Aji in the corner and is somewhat crowded with his four stones but now my left-side group is pretty weak, so I don't know, if this was a good trade.

So I played this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 7 . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But yeah, this is not much of a difference is it? Instead of giving White just a weak group to attack, I gave him nice profit and influence and some sort of a attackable group.

As the name of the topic suggests: I was imitating something I don't have a (deeper) clue of. So now I would gladly know how to handle such situations? ^^

Author:	Solomon [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Imitating Dan-level play
To me, expecting "b" for White in your 2nd figure is unreasonable: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . 7 . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] is simple and needed. You need to ask yourself the question "What is the motive behind "? If you can't answer such a question, you shouldn't play to begin with, and this is the danger behind trying to imitate pro moves - if you imitate something you don't understand, you will gain very little if at all. Playing elsewhere and letting White play at is too good. It's not correct to think "well I guess it's okay because still has some aji", instead you should be thinking "is it worth damaging that much to invest another move at the top?". These are not the same thought processes. Letting White play at gives him invincible shape and , while indeed it does have some aji, is broken. And breaking a stone as early as 5 is not worth an extra move at the top. Furthermore, it's not like White will ignore .

Author:	cdybeijing [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Imitating Dan-level play
Araban wrote: To me, expecting "b" for White in your 2nd figure is unreasonable: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . 7 . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] is simple and needed. You need to ask yourself the question "What is the motive behind "? If you can't answer such a question, you shouldn't play to begin with, and this is the danger behind trying to imitate pro moves - if you imitate something you don't understand, you will gain very little if at all. Playing elsewhere and letting White play at is too good. It's not correct to think "well I guess it's okay because still has some aji", instead you should be thinking "is it worth damaging that much to invest another move at the top?". These are not the same thought processes. Letting White play at gives him invincible shape and , while indeed it does have some aji, is broken. And breaking a stone as early as 5 is not worth an extra move at the top. Furthermore, it's not like White will ignore . Araban, can you please explain what is indeed the motive behind ? And what if was a low approach on the other side of white's hoshi, at in the very first diagram of this thread?

Author:	HermanHiddema [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Imitating Dan-level play
@cdybeijing: For a treatment of the motivation behind , see this post on probes: viewtopic.php?p=9891#p9891 (second example)

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Imitating Dan-level play
A little bit of database perspective. 1. The left side negotiations occur 82 times in the GoGoD database but only in four pro games in the full fuseki shown. Since Black's two stones on the right are a very common shape, this hints at the left side business not being regarded as a popular way to proceed in this case. 2. White 6 in the second of the OP's diagrams seems downright bad. It NEVER occurs in the database positions unless White has strength already on the lower side. Inherently the star point stone is meant for use in attacking and in later play. Here, with no attack possible, to switch at once to clumsy and incomplete defence of the corner, and to settle things at once by strengthening Black on the lower side (giving all his moves their there full intended meaning) seems perverse. In other words, Black says thank you very much for the lower side gains and changes his strategy on the left side. Whatever group he makes there will be almost unattackable, and there are no Black groups around close by for any spillover from an attack to matter much.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Imitating Dan-level play
SoDesuNe wrote: I saw this sequence played regulary in Dan-level games and thought the idea behind it was quite neat because now White won't make such a narrow extension to 'a' to threaten the base of my group. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 9 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] My first reaction to your title was, Why imitate dan players? Trying to understand their play is better. Besides, you can't count on them to make the right play. But you didn't just imitate them, you came up with an idea about why they make these plays. That's great! Quote: Well, now, I wanted to try it out and that is what happend: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] {snip} So I played this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . 7 . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] So far, so good, IMO. Quote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] But yeah, this is not much of a difference is it? Instead of giving White just a weak group to attack, I gave him nice profit and influence and some sort of a attackable group. As the name of the topic suggests: I was imitating something I don't have a (deeper) clue of. So now I would gladly know how to handle such situations? ^^ This last diagram is where you went wrong, I think. You chose this line of play because you did not want to make it easy for White to attack your group. Instead, you make an even weaker group and give White an obvious attack. Note the phrase, even weaker group. The opening is not the time to make weak groups, as a rule, is it? You can argue that the left side is settled for the time being, and tenuki. (Tenuki is always an option. ) Enclosing either corner on the right side makes sense. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Aim at White's weakness $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . C . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I would definitely consider the approach at . White's corner has weaknesses at the marked points. Also, has the backing of the aji in the top left corner. I anticipate a White pincer and a complicated fight.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Imitating Dan-level play
SoDesuNe wrote: ... As the name of the topic suggests: I was imitating something I don't have a (deeper) clue of... You're in good company with that. All of us do it. It is sort of the nature of the game.

Author:	Magicwand [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Imitating Dan-level play
below is too good for black. white is giving up whole bottom for one marked black stone which is too small and full of bad aji. your marked white stone is a somewhat sente but not a good sente. you gain nothing but black gets stronger influence. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . W X . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Imitating Dan-level play
Thank you all! Especially to Bill Spight (and HermanHiddema for the link) =) Of course hitting the weak spot makes sense, I think I was too concernced with the fixed pattern after White's cut. I really should play with more creativity and flexibility.

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