Arguments for or against diagonal openings

Gresil · #1

Bill Spight wrote:

FWIW, there is an argument for taking the diagonally opposite corner. By doing so White can force a parallel fuseki if each side takes a corner. If White takes an adjacent corner, Black can also force a parallel fuseki (again, assuming that each side takes a corner). Given that assumption, a parallel fuseki is equitable. If White plays in an adjacent corner instead, Black can make a diagonal fuseki, which may be favorable for Black.

One little revelation that recently made me change my thinking about the opening slightly was that komi gives white more advantage in a game of small territories. If you add to that the commonsense sentiment that a diagonal opening is less amenable to framework-based play, does it not immediately follow that a parallel opening favors black?

Tommie · #2

My view is that I do not know of any objective argument pro or con.

However, if s.o. has a preference for (much) fighting with small scale territories,
then s/he could like the diagonal fusekis (as there are no big moyos to counter).

Just a subjective argument.

Andd · #3

Subjectively, I love them, but white forces parallel fuseki usually.

emeraldemon · #4

I like opening 34 as white, but if I open on the opposite 3-4, I allow black to do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B No good for W? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 , 5 . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I think :b5:

is good for black. So I play this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B b can't make good approach $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But of course that means Black can take a diagonal opening if he wants:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I guess I think of allowing diagonal fuseki as a necessary risk of preferring 34 openings.

amnal · #5

Gresil wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

FWIW, there is an argument for taking the diagonally opposite corner. By doing so White can force a parallel fuseki if each side takes a corner. If White takes an adjacent corner, Black can also force a parallel fuseki (again, assuming that each side takes a corner). Given that assumption, a parallel fuseki is equitable. If White plays in an adjacent corner instead, Black can make a diagonal fuseki, which may be favorable for Black.

One little revelation that recently made me change my thinking about the opening slightly was that komi gives white more advantage in a game of small territories. If you add to that the commonsense sentiment that a diagonal opening is less amenable to framework-based play, does it not immediately follow that a parallel opening favors black?

I don't think your premise is accurate. It is not obvious to me tha komi gives white more advantage in a game of small territories, or that a diagonal opening will naturally lead to this (even if it isn't amenable to large framework play).

usagi · #6

Tommie wrote:

My view is that I do not know of any objective argument pro or con.

There are two very good reasons why Black should never play a diagonal Fuseki. One is a social reason and the other is pertaining to the strategic idea of direction of play. One, in books, the diagrams are always presented from Black's view, as a courtesy to the person studying the game (who is assumed to be taking the black stones). There are a few assumptions here; one, that White is usually a stronger player and receives 0.5 komi, versus 6.5 komi as in an even game. Therefore what is being shown here is proper play; if Black deviates from this proper play, it is regarded as either rude, because Black is telling White "I am stronger than you, I don't need the knowledge of studying" or hopelessly naieve (Black is telling White "I have not studied this game.") Which is also considered rude, since then how could you have appeared before such a White?

But brushing all that aside, it's also a classic direction of play mistake. Moving in the opposite corner is bad shape for the same reason the elephant jump is bad shape compared to an ikken tobi. Perhaps it is more easily understood with this example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Two direction of play mistakes, or three? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 a . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . . . X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 8 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Regardless of the moves beforehand, it is easy to see that when Black blocks at 5 it is in the wrong direction of play.. when White extends to 9, it's the same sort of feeling as in the diagonal fuseki; black's group on the bottom does not have a clear way of connecting to his stone in the upper right. White is happy with this because his two stones on the left can 'see' each other. They have some mojo going on, but not so for Black.

On the other hand, were Black to respond to White's initial approach move simply at 'a', it would be a better direction for his stones since then White would not have such an easy time of it on the right side; any waruichi (wedge) would be attacked. On the other hand, after Black's extension at 'a' and White's settling at or around 'b', Black will still be left with a good approach move at 'c'.

Therefore we might even question Black's pincer response as a poor direction of play. And in that light, certainly, also the diagonal fuseki.

As an aside, White's original approach move can also be criticized because it allows black to extend towards his shape on the top right; for this reason you will often see players making a waruichi (wedge) around 'd'.

Now, where did I hear this? Gee, I can't remember. But I'm pretty sure a pro told me. :tmbup:

ganbarimasu!

gaius · #7

Usagi, there are too many examples of pro games with diagonal fusekis for me to believe that anything of what you say on cross fusekis is true.

I saw an opening once that proceeded like this. Probably black was just a naive, yet rude beginner with no feeling for direction of play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black playing like a noob, probably around KGS 28k $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Gresil · #8

I once saw a pro game where one player didn't connect against a peep.

Wildclaw · #9

usagi wrote:

On the other hand, were Black to respond to White's initial approach move simply at 'a', it would be a better direction for his stones since then White would not have such an easy time of it on the right side; any waruichi (wedge) would be attacked. On the other hand, after Black's extension at 'a' and White's settling at or around 'b', Black will still be left with a good approach move at 'c'.

Therefore we might even question Black's pincer response as a poor direction of play. And in that light, certainly, also the diagonal fuseki.

That sounds incredibly much like the Chewbacca defense.

usagi · **#10**

gaius wrote:

Usagi, there are too many examples of pro games with diagonal fusekis for me to believe that anything of what you say on cross fusekis is true.

I saw an opening once that proceeded like this. Probably black was just a naive, yet rude beginner with no feeling for direction of play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black playing like a noob, probably around KGS 28k $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The player in question was go seigen, who was probably the strongest player in history. He probably wanted to try such a fuseki because he was stronger than his opponent and thought it would be better to split up white than to defend his own position.

How do you think his opponent felt upon seeing black's 1-3-5? I believe it is a well commented game ^^

-

tapir · **#11**

I started to play in the adjacent corner as White, i.e. I offer a diagonal fuseki. Black usually won't go for it however. Usually Black starts with the first move on the star point, by playing the second move adjacent, Black will play the third move (more often than not a komoku) parallel. That is, White has the choice how to face it with its own stone. This is a very convenient way to be in control of opening choice and in bringing compulsive mini-chinese etc. players out of their book.

Furthermore, if diagonal fuseki really were impolite, which they are not, and not playing them a matter of courtesy. Then playing in the diagonal corner would inevitably be considered impolite as well, because it is somewhat like implying that your opponent would behave rude, if he gets the chance to. (+ I really don't get usagi's example. How can you make a case against diagonal fuseki with an example featuring a parallel one by claiming it is essentially similar?)

illluck · **#12**

I'm pretty sure that usagi is joking :p

usagi wrote:

One, in books, the diagrams are always presented from Black's view, as a courtesy to the person studying the game (who is assumed to be taking the black stones). There are a few assumptions here; one, that White is usually a stronger player and receives 0.5 komi, versus 6.5 komi as in an even game. Therefore what is being shown here is proper play; if Black deviates from this proper play, it is regarded as either rude, because Black is telling White "I am stronger than you, I don't need the knowledge of studying" or hopelessly naieve (Black is telling White "I have not studied this game.") Which is also considered rude, since then how could you have appeared before such a White?

And:

usagi wrote:

Now, where did I hear this? Gee, I can't remember. But I'm pretty sure a pro told me. :tmbup:

ganbarimasu!

ethanb · **#13**

As white I almost always give my opponent the chance to play a diagonal fuseki. As black I almost always play a diagonal fuseki if offered the chance.

I enjoy complex fights, and this sort of opening is one of the easiest ways to find one.

palapiku · **#14**

As black, you're behind from the beginning of the game. As always when behind, you have to raise the temperature, so that the value of the komi is not so big compared to the values of the plays.

A diagonal opening dramatically lowers the temperature by limiting the potential of all the corner stones. So it's a mistake for black, but should be welcomed by white.

Therefore as white, you should always open in an adjacent corner to give black an extra opportunity to screw up and play diagonal fuseki.

Jedo · **#15**

palapiku wrote:

As black, you're behind from the beginning of the game. As always when behind, you have to raise the temperature, so that the value of the komi is not so big compared to the values of the plays.

A diagonal opening dramatically lowers the temperature by limiting the potential of all the corner stones. So it's a mistake for black, but should be welcomed by white.

Therefore as white, you should always open in an adjacent corner to give black an extra opportunity to screw up and play diagonal fuseki.

I am skeptical about this. I see no reason why the first move advantage by black isn't worth as much in a diagonal game. These games are usually fighting heavy, and the advantage of the first move is big.

daniel_the_smith · **#16**

Both players must agree to play a diagonal opening.

Therefore, if it is inferior for one player (and the players are halfway decent), it will never get played.

Since someone will eventually win the game after the diagonal opening, the diagonal opening must have been inferior for the other player.

Therefore, that player should not have played the diagonal opening.

So, clearly, diagonal openings are inferior and should only be played if you are hoping to trick your opponent.

Edit:

illluck · **#17**

I am surprised by the number of people who think diagonal openings are bad for black - I have always considered (and still believe) that diagonal openings favour black slightly.

Edit: p.s. I'd be very surprised if the difference between parallel and diagonal openings is more than 2 points :p

Jedo · **#18**

Don't let this become 4chan :sad:

Loons · **#19**

My two cents:

I have a vague feeling that if black is playing two developmental stones, they should probably be orthogonal (same for white, I guess). So if you play two 4-4s, they should probably be orthogonal (Developing your home-side is likely to benefit both).

But if you are playing a 4-4 (wants the adjacent stars) and a 3-3 (doesn't really want the adjacent stars) I don't think they should necessarily be orthogonal. Not so ?

Anyway, I often play the following situation as white (and am happy to as black):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If you're not in the mood to play against Chinese or Kobayashi (and especially if you're in the mood to taisha), this creates an interesting game too, which can be diagonal if eg. black takes the open corner.

entropi · **#20**

I hate both diagonal and parallel openings. Any other kind of openings like great wall, or handicap openings, etc, I hate even more. I am not in favour of any kind of opening. I wish I could start my games directly with midgame.

Arguments for or against diagonal openings

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