Life In 19x19 :: a little help with this position

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a little help with this position http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2627	Page 1 of 1

Author:	dedroid [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:	a little help with this position
I think I've seen this somewhere on here before, but can't find it. I've had this position happen in my game, and I'm not quite sure how to handle it. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . a . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X b W . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I answered at a, but I now think that b is better. white may be able to connect under, but black can keep white low and short of eyes. Is this correct? or is there a better way to handle this?

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
dedroid wrote: I think I've seen this somewhere on here before, but can't find it. I've had this position happen in my game, and I'm not quite sure how to handle it. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . a . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X b W . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I answered at a, but I now think that b is better. white may be able to connect under, but black can keep white low and short of eyes. Is this correct? or is there a better way to handle this? "a" gives up too much. "b" does not threaten to separate the White stones. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I like .

Author:	lorill [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
how do you continue if white pushes ?

Author:	cyclops [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
lorill wrote: how do you continue if white pushes ? s10 I would answer with b@s7 and keep w seperated. r9 I would answer with b@q8.

Author:	logan [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
B is the proper way to respond, A is the incorrect. There is a full analysis of this position in 100 Tips for Amateur Players II by Yoon Youngsun.

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Fight, fight, fight - fight, fight, fight! : )

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Or maybe 'a' first. But white will live inside of black's area of influence. Small, small, small, small, small.

Author:	Gresil [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
I would cap it with a keima. Is that too mellow?

Author:	amnal [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
Gresil wrote: I would cap it with a keima. Is that too mellow? Seems basically the same as R10 but unnecessarily...well, yes, mellow. Since you can block white strongly with R10 without problems, there's no need to play R11.

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Or maybe 'a' first. But white will live inside of black's area of influence. Small, small, small, small, small. Hm, whole bottom right, massive thickness into the center and White lives small and is sealed. I don't see a big loss for Black.

Author:	dedroid [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
so many different responses O-O now i are confused

Author:	oren [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
dedroid wrote: so many different responses O-O now i are confused Welcome to go!

Author:	Magicwand [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
will result in which is a bad play for black. if black can not catch this group he will lose too much. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 6 \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 2 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Bartleby [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
logan wrote: B is the proper way to respond, A is the incorrect. There is a full analysis of this position in 100 Tips for Amateur Players II by Yoon Youngsun. If you are talking about the analysis on p. 163, I think there may be a difference here, which is that here there are other white stones near enough to be helpful in some lines. I remember asking a similar question about an invasion on the second line directly under a stone on the middle starpoint in a san ren sei opening. I am not sure whether that was on Go Discussions or here. In that situation, like in the example 100 Tips for Amateur Players II, there were no friendly stones around (i.e., it was an invasion of one stone on the second line beneath a stone on the fourth line). Someone (maybe Bill Spight or Araban?) suggested that the normal response was to play a butting move against the invading stone, but that it depended to some extent on the surrounding stones.

Author: Dusk Eagle [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:02 pm ]

Post subject: Re: a little help with this position

I think the butting move is good if the stones are a line farther back. There's a noticeable difference between these two positions:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So far, I think Bill's suggestion for this situation is best:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . Q X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . Q Y . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If it seems unsatisfying, that might be because in the top right corner, the exchange of :wt:

for

is much better for white than for black. When white plays :w1:

below, black should hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 1 X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author: Bill Spight [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:09 pm ]

Post subject: Re: a little help with this position

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ And then again. . . . $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another play you sometimes see in this kind of situation is :b1:

on the second line. It seem kind of loose for this position, but is worth considering.

lorill's question about how to answer White's crawl is a good one. OC, the first thought is to block, so maybe that is the point to play at the start.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ And then again. . . . $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 3 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

cuts,

is good, threatening "a", which is difficult for Black, thanks to the marked White stones. If :b7:

is annoying, as is "b".

It would be nice to hear more from Magicwand about how to handle this slide.

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: a little help with this position
After reading Dusk Eagle's post, I noticed I confused the position with the one, where Black has the stone on the Hoshi point ^^ So, maybe no fight, fight, fight : (

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