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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #1 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:56 pm 
Tengen
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NOW IT IS 4K ~ 1K LEVEL PROBLEM.

edit: BLACK TO FIND THE BEST RESULT.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson


Last edited by Magicwand on Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline quantumf
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #2 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:10 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]
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Offline Cassandra
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #3 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:30 am 
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quantumf wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

I don't think so.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B 2 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 B 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

EDIT: If the task would have been (as it originally was) to save both marked stones, not only one (with :b3: at :b5: ).

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Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)


Last edited by Cassandra on Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #4 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:17 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
quantumf wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

I don't think so.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B 2 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 B 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Task is to save both marked stones, not only one (with :b3: at :b5: ).

HUM...i am just copying the question from the website..
i dont think you can save both stone if white really try to catch one.
i guess i should change the problem to find the best result.

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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #5 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:18 am 
Oza

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Cassandra wrote:
I don't think so.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B 2 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 B 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Connecting at :b3: doesn't work so well. There is no reason to try to save the one stone becuase the white stones cannot be capture. Try :b4: instea of :b3: .

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Offline Cassandra
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #6 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:20 am 
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DrStraw wrote:
Connecting at :b3: doesn't work so well. There is no reason to try to save the one stone becuase the white stones cannot be capture. Try :b4: instea of :b3: .

As already written, I would play :b3: at :b5: .

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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #7 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:53 am 
Oza

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Cassandra wrote:
As already written, I would play :b3: at :b5: .


But that is not as good. A W stone at M5 instead of a B one prevents B from encroaching any further into the corner.

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Offline Cassandra
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #8 Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:52 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
As already written, I would play :b3: at :b5: .


But that is not as good. A W stone at M5 instead of a B one prevents B from encroaching any further into the corner.

:w4: at M5 will be captured.

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Offline joppon
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #9 Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:40 am 
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If Black plays at L6, I cannot see how white can live.
In this variation the marked stones both live. I think. :)
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #10 Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:55 am 
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@joppon: How do you plan to answer white M7?
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Offline nagano
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #11 Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:17 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 4 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

I believe this is the correct answer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X 2 1 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 X 4 6 |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 8 5 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Continuation
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X 1 2 |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . 3 O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Black is captured.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 X 4 6 |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 7 5 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Continuation
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . 6 2 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X O X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X O O |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O 3 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Same result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X 3 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

If white plays like this, it turns out basically the same as the last two sequences did for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . 7 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 2 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 8 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

White wins.

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Offline joppon
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #12 Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:32 am 
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After further and proper consideration, I now believe that both of the marked stones cannot be saved.
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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #13 Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:16 am 
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joppon wrote:
After further and proper consideration, I now believe that both of the marked stones cannot be saved.

Just a try:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ , . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . 3 . |
$$ , . X O O 2 0 |
$$ . . O X 1 5 6 |
$$ . . O . X 4 8 |
$$ , O . , a 7 9 |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

edit: black a next

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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #14 Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:31 am 
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other variants:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 2@a
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . 6 3 5 |
$$ . . X O O a 9 |
$$ . . O X X 1 7 |
$$ . . O . X 0 . |
$$ . O . , . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . 2 . |
$$ . . X O O 1 4 |
$$ . . O X X 6 8 |
$$ . . O 7 X 5 . |
$$ . O . , 3 . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X 0 . 2 9 |
$$ . . X O O 1 . |
$$ . . O X X 3 7 |
$$ . . O . X 4 8 |
$$ . O . , . 5 . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . 2 . |
$$ . . X O O 1 4 |
$$ . . O X X 5 . |
$$ . . O . X 6 . |
$$ . O . , 3 7 . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]


But maybe, after further and proper consideration, the refutation is in W3 below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . 2 . |
$$ . . X O O 1 . |
$$ . . O X X . . |
$$ . . O . X . 3 |
$$ . O . , . . . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #23
Post #15 Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:41 am 
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i started this thread so i will end it :)
how about below?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . 2 . |
$$ . . X O O 1 7 |
$$ . . O X X 4 5 |
$$ . . O . X 8 6 |
$$ . O . , 9 3 . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]



below is correct variation for this shape
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . X O O 1 . |
$$ . . O X 2 3 . |
$$ . . O 4 X . . |
$$ . O . , . 5 . |
$$ . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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