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Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2680		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  breakfast [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
Ideas from my new book are getting popular!

Even on 5-6d level it's possible to get big advantage by using them:
http://insei-league.com/goban.php?sgf=y ... 040468.sgf

Black (ywhuang) won my book in Handicap Division of the insei league. Read it
and decided to try ideas (Q9 in that game) in action.

Now we will see some comments from GoGoD that this move is not new at all :)

Full commentary of this game will be available soon in AGA E-Journal.
Feel free to study these variations and try this unusual pincer in your games

If you have any ideas about the punishment, we can discuss it here on lifein19X19
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
Quote:
Now we will see some comments from GoGoD that this move is not new at all


Well, you did ask, Alex :)

I don't know which move you mean, but of you mean the pincer against the tiger's mouth, we have 11 games from 1976 onwards. Cho Chikun appears in the last three examples, funnily enough.

If you mean the Black move after that, we haven't got it, but we haven't got the white move before that, which suggests it might be a mistake.

Or did you mean something else?

If it's any consolation, Japanese books often claim novelties when we can find much earlier examples. There's a good example in "The Meijin's Retirement Game". But we are often being trumped ourselves, as it were, especially now that we are doing lots of games for the period 1950-1990. (New Go Seigen game this week from this period! That's what excites us.)
Author:  Perception [ Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
That specific pincer against the kaketsugi I haven't seen before (I don't have any database to search though). In Modern Joseki and Fuseki volume 1 by Sakata Eio however the following variation is discussed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c p95 dia 34 modern joseki and fuseki vol 1
$$ -------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


The closer pincer in the game you linked to is interesting as well. How should white respond to the close pincer at q9 in that game? It seems more vulnerable to a counter attack than a distant pincer even with the shimari in the upper right giving it support.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ -------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 2 . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . b X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


After White jumps to 2 moves around a and b are miai. Black can defend the pincer stone or try to deny white stability and thickness on the bottom.
Author:  breakfast [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
Q9 is new move.
2 space pincer is not new at all. I can see lot of 2-space examples in Bigo Assistant.

About 1 space pincer: only some 5d-7d amateur examples in Bigo. No examples in GoGod, I guess
Author:  breakfast [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
"After White jumps to 2 moves around a and b are miai. Black can defend the pincer stone or try to deny white stability and thickness on the bottom."

It looks slack for W. Black can get the base and attachment is not painful anymore. Black can just play 2nd line hane and get cash in the corner.
W's wall would be overconcentrated
Author:  Loons [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
Am I wrong in thinking that a similar situation can come up in 3 space high pincer, tenuki ? I thought that I'd seen that before, but neither kogo's nor josekipedia have it, so maybe I am imagining things.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
Quote:
About 1 space pincer: only some 5d-7d amateur examples in Bigo. No examples in GoGod, I guess


I repeat: ELEVEN examples in GoGoD, from 1976 onwards, ALL PRO, Japan, China and Korea.
Author:  breakfast [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
Oh, sorry. I thought you talked about 2-space pincers
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
About 1 space pincer: only some 5d-7d amateur examples in Bigo. No examples in GoGod, I guess


I repeat: ELEVEN examples in GoGoD, from 1976 onwards, ALL PRO, Japan, China and Korea.


I can find this position eleven times in my (1 year old) copy of GoGoD:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------
$$ - . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . .
$$ - . . . X . .
$$ - . . X , . .
$$ - . . X O . .
$$ - . . O . . .
$$ - . . . W . .
$$ - . . . . . .
$$ - . . . B . .
$$ - . . . . . .[/go]


The earliest is, indeed, from 1976.

But in that game, the :wc: marked white stone is the last move, not the :bc: pincer. The position is the result of a white invasion into a high Chinese pattern (formed by :bc: and the 3-4 corner stone). I do not know if it is fair to count that game, as black might not have chosen to pincer in this way had the position come about in another fashion.

Of the eleven examples, there are several more that are the result of such an invasion by white, rather than a pincer by black.

The earliest true example of the one point pincer I can find is from a 1987 game between Otake Hideo and Takagi Shoichi:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 8 . 7 . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In total, searching for this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------
$$ - . . . . . .
$$ - . . . . . .
$$ - . . . X . .
$$ - . . X , . .
$$ - . . X O . .
$$ - . . O . . .
$$ - . . . O . .
$$ - . . . . . .
$$ - . . . a . .
$$ - . . . . . .[/go]


My copy of GoGoD gives a as the next move four times.
Author:  hiyayang [ Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
I have the Otake-Takagi game and six other pro games with the pincer move played before hand (as in high Chinese opening) in my own game collection. Even in the Otake-Takagi game, Otake 9p tenuki'ed after the pincer, essentially returning the game to the high Chinese opening style. So it looks like tenuki is an option, if not the optimal one. As the Go proverb goes, if you don't know how to respond, play elsewhere.
Author:  ethanb [ Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ideas from my new book are getting popular!
I have the Otake-Tagaki game as well, but no other official pro games in my database (obviously I should have asked for GoGod as a present :)) - though I also have two examples from Tygem in 2005.
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