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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: interresting tsumego
Post #1 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:54 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play and escape
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O . . .
$$ . . O X X X O . .
$$ . . . X . X . . .
$$ . . O . O . O . .
$$ . . . . O . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I really can't say anything about the difficulty. I couldn't find the solution after looking at it for a minute or so and a 2k who was just in between games couldn't solve it either (but to be fair he didn't really try)

Hint:
The first play is an unexpected one. If you know it I'm confident a 12k could solve the problem. At least I could without difficulty after it was shown.

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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: interresting tsumego
Post #2 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:00 am 
Gosei

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My attempt:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play and escape
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O . . .
$$ . . O X X X O . .
$$ . . . X . X . . .
$$ . . O . O . O . .
$$ . . . . O . . . .
$$ . . . . B . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: interesting tsumego
Post #3 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:03 am 
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My guesses:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White can't block at :w2:
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O 6 . .
$$ . . O X X X O 5 .
$$ . . . X . X 3 4 .
$$ . . O . O 1 O 7 .
$$ . . . . O 2 . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Nor here at :w4:
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 8 O O O . . .
$$ . 7 O X X X O . .
$$ . 6 5 X . X . . .
$$ . 9 O 3 O 1 O . .
$$ . . . 4 O . 2 . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B After White's extended on both sides, Black pushes
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O . . .
$$ . . O X X X O . .
$$ . . . X . X . . .
$$ . . O 3 O 1 O . .
$$ . . 4 5 O . 2 . .
$$ . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Now both cuts work
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O . . .
$$ . . O X X X O . .
$$ . . . X . X . . .
$$ . . O X O X O . .
$$ . . O X O 3 O . .
$$ . . 2 O 1 . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Now both cuts work
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O . . .
$$ . . O X X X O . .
$$ . . . X . X . . .
$$ . . O X O X O . .
$$ . . O X O a O . .
$$ . . b O 1 2 . . .
$$ . . . . 3 . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Now both cuts work
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . 8 O O O . . .
$$ . 7 O X X X O . .
$$ . 6 5 X . X . . .
$$ . 9 O X O X O . .
$$ . . O X O 2 O . .
$$ . . 3 O 1 . . . .
$$ . . . 4 . . . . .[/go]


EDIT: As the key point seems to be :b1: in the final diagram, I suspect TJ is right and that it simply works as the first move too.
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: interresting tsumego
Post #4 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:52 am 
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@ TJ and topazg
Looks like you got it right. Apparently this problem was pretty easy :sad: I just tried to cut my way out and failed. Playing on the outside seems highly counter intuitive (at least for me)

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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: interresting tsumego
Post #5 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:56 am 
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topazg:
Your attempt doesn't work:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Whoops
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O . . .
$$ . . O X X X O . .
$$ . . 2 X . X . . .
$$ . . O X O X O . .
$$ . . O X O 3 O . .
$$ . . . O 1 4 . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

tj's solution seems to be the only correct answer :)

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: interresting tsumego
Post #6 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:03 am 
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@gaius:

:oops:

And people wonder why I tend to blunder groups in good looking games... Thanks Gaius, I looked at that and misread the liberties completely.


@Mnem, even ignoring my fail of an attempt, I wouldn't consider this problem at all easy. I'd almost definitely never get it in a real game.
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Offline HermanHiddema
 Post subject: Re: interresting tsumego
Post #7 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:46 am 
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It's a classic from the Xuanxuan Qijing: http://senseis.xmp.net/?XuanxuanQijingProblem347

Now try this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Another classical symmetric problem. Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X X X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: interresting tsumego
Post #8 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:02 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
It's a classic from the Xuanxuan Qijing: http://senseis.xmp.net/?XuanxuanQijingProblem347

Now try this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Another classical symmetric problem. Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X X X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Another classical symmetric problem. Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X X X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bonk!
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: interresting tsumego
Post #9 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:06 am 
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Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Another classical symmetric problem. Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X X X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bonk!


You sure?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Another classical symmetric problem. Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 8 1 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 7 O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X 4 5 O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O 3 . 2 O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X X X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: interresting tsumego
Post #10 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:44 am 
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I think I found a good solution (can't find resistance), but I also think it's wrong, and it's too large to post in this margin anyway.

This post by Shaddy was liked by 4 people: Li Kao, Mnemonic, Phelan, robinz
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Offline unkx80
 Post subject: Re: interresting tsumego
Post #11 Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:38 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
It's a classic from the Xuanxuan Qijing: http://senseis.xmp.net/?XuanxuanQijingProblem347

Now try this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Another classical symmetric problem. Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X X X X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have the solution to this problem. The main line is more than 40 moves long.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: interresting tsumego
Post #12 Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:41 am 
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i hate reading for nothing..so i rely on my feeling...
my feeling say... that is the point of this exercise..
i will just wait for the answer and enjoy. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Another classical symmetric problem. Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O O X X X X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . . X . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X X . X X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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