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| 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3221 |
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| Author: | fwiffo [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
I just had this joseki come up in a game (I'm white): My opponent played  , which is not joseki as far as I'm aware (should be directly at  ). It doesn't seem like black should get the hane-connect for free if it's not joseki... But I'm having trouble coming up with a response for white that isn't worse than joseki. As the game went, I played it badly and I'm going to die. It doesn't seem like this position should really be that confounding!
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
Seems slightly more gote-ish for black the way he played. White might still answer, but I feel slightly more inclined to tenuki this way. |
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| Author: | fwiffo [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
I think white needs to protect against the hane in the corner or risk losing a lot. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
Indeed, pros never play . I can't see why not though. 
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| Author: | judicata [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
fwiffo wrote: I think white needs to protect against the hane in the corner or risk losing a lot. Do you mean white needs to protect after black connects? The corner is small already, so there isn't much to reduce. I think if black can't kill, white should probably tenuki. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
oh wait, I see now... edit: wait, maybe I spoke too soon... :/ |
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| Author: | fwiffo [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
If white doesn't play another move after the hane-connect, white can be pushed around badly just to survive. So yeah, black can't kill, but white will be forced to crawl on the second line to live or be shut in badly. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
fwiffo wrote: If white doesn't play another move after the hane-connect, white can be pushed around badly just to survive. So yeah, black can't kill, but white will be forced to crawl on the second line to live or be shut in badly. My gut feeling is that White only has 8 points anyway. Sente at corner joseki stage is surely worth more than the reduction possibilities Black has, provided White is unconditionally alive? Which I suppose means the descent is a definite kill threat. |
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| Author: | judicata [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
daniel_the_smith wrote: Indeed, pros never play . I can't see why not though. According to a quick GoGoD search, the first 11 moves appear in only 15 games. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
fwiffo wrote: I think white needs to protect against the hane in the corner or risk losing a lot. IMO, the point is that white may still protect, but he is less inclined to protect than with the joseki sequence. Sente is based on the amount of points something is worth. So let's say that joseki makes it worth X points for white to defend. I believe that it is worth less than X points for white to defend in this position - say Y points. So if something is on the board valued between X and Y, that would make the difference between this and joseki. In other words,  in the second diagram of your first post is valuable.
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| Author: | fwiffo [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
I'm being a little bit unclear. I'm also being a little bit cagey because I'm analysing an alternate history of a game-in-progress and don't want to spoil it. I don't think white can really tenuki in this position because of black moves at a or b. In the game, I cut at c and ended up in a bad way. My opponent has since blundered and let me off the hook - I even got to use a nose tesuji for the first time ever, but that's a whole nuther thread. |
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| Author: | judicata [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
fwiffo wrote: I don't think white can really tenuki in this position because of black moves at a or b. Are you saying black a or b kills? If not - white has maybe 7 points in the corner. If black reduces that to 2 points, black gets 5 points. If this is the opening, surely there is a move elsewhere worth more than 5 points? |
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| Author: | topazg [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
fwiffo wrote: I'm being a little bit unclear. I'm also being a little bit cagey because I'm analysing an alternate history of a game-in-progress and don't want to spoil it. I don't think white can really tenuki in this position because of black moves at a or b. In the game, I cut at c and ended up in a bad way. My opponent has since blundered and let me off the hook - I even got to use a nose tesuji for the first time ever, but that's a whole nuther thread. I would be tempted to. I mean, playing locally is big, but: Because of the cut aji at "a", Black's going to want to play it or "b" at some point, giving White yet another free move. White can't be killed either: Is simply alive, ignoring the remaining aji at "a". So, if we say that Black seals White in to only having about 2 or 3 points, and he had 8 points before, it's a loss of only 5-6 points + some ambiguous points for Black's thickness. In the late opening early middle game I understand a lot of moves are worth ~20 points or so (I remember this from a post-game discussion writeup where they played that "card go" game or whatever where the players could claim points and pass instead of move). The argument being that actually the global temperature frequently goes up (increasing move value) after a few stones are down compared to an empty board. So, for the loss of maybe 10 or so points I'd gladly take sente for something in the opening (bearing in mind that after  in the above diagram, Black now really wants to protect at "a" too).
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| Author: | fwiffo [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
My judgement was that the influence from sealing white in - not just white's points lost in territory - make it too big to tenuki. But that's based on my eye's judgment, so I may be overestimating that. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
fwiffo wrote: My judgement was that the influence from sealing white in - not just white's points lost in territory - make it too big to tenuki. But that's based on my eye's judgment, so I may be overestimating that. That makes sense. I just consider White already completely sealed in 
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| Author: | Fredrik [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
| is possible, not needed though. Depends on the players style. A and B is miai, please note that white 1 and 9 is just showing tenuki. Ideally they will be at middle-hoshi (K16) and an approach in upperleft-corner. Black gets thick but white is fast. This variation is slightly inferior to the next one because: Probably Black will exchange B for A which could have been better if he had extended immediately: In this variation, later Black can connect at a in sente (or capture the 2 stones in sente as payment, Black will most likely get this move in yose). Like this, Blacks territority in the corner is bigger than the other variation. Also there is also another reason, If Black later can get 4 and 6 in sente, it will help him attacking/developing the top. Please note that the amount of territority in white's corner would be the same as if Black hane and white defended on the first line. (     ).
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| Author: | fwiffo [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 4-4 pincer double-approach Joseki mistake? |
That totally clears it up for me. Awesome. |
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