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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #1 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:41 am 
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #2 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:36 am 
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Last time I chickened out and skipped the harder problems. I'll try to do better this time.

#187
First I thought that black just plays at :b1:, but then white plays :w2: and black can only capture a dead shape. So the best I could do is get a ko where black takes first.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc No good
$$------------------
$$ . . X O . 1 . |
$$ . O O X X O 2 |
$$ . . . O X O O |
$$ . . . O X X X |
$$ . . . O O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Ko for black
$$------------------
$$ . . X O 4 3 2 |
$$ . O O X X O 1 |
$$ . . . O X O O |
$$ . . . O X X X |
$$ . . . O O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 8 takes the ko
$$------------------
$$ . . X 7 6 5 O |
$$ . O O X X O . |
$$ . . . O X O O |
$$ . . . O X X X |
$$ . . . O O O 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


#188
this one seemed simple so I probably got it wrong :-?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 3 O X O X . . .
$$ | . 1 2 O X . . .
$$ | . . . O X . X .
$$ | . . . . O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]


#189
I first thought that :b1: would work, but after :w2: you have a must win ko for black. Not good :sad:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . O O O . . |
$$ . . . O X X O O |
$$ . . . O X . X . |
$$ . O . O X O . X |
$$ . . . X . 1 2 . |
$$ ----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . O O O . . |
$$ . . . O X X O O |
$$ . . . O X . X . |
$$ . O . O X O . X |
$$ . . . X 3 2 1 . |
$$ ----------------[/go]

After :w2: black has to play again in the corner, but I don't think it really matters where you play exactly. I think :b3: is best endgame wise.

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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #3 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:43 am 
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@Mnemonic

How to answer :w4: ? Your first move was correct.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 3 O X O X . . .
$$ | . 1 2 O X . . .
$$ | . 4 . O X . X .
$$ | . . . . O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #4 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:59 am 
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#188 new try
Damn, didn't see that. I had considred that move, but only after white conected. :sad: Back to the drawing board. This is the only :b3: that makes sense to me and now it looks like a capturing race.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | 5 X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | 7 O O X X . . .
$$ | 4 O 8 O X . . .
$$ | 2 X O O X . . .
$$ | 3 1 6 O X . X .
$$ | . . 9 . O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | 5 O O X X . . .
$$ | 3 O 6 O X . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 2 O X . X .
$$ | . 4 7 8 O 9 . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Offline unkx80
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #5 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:29 am 
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To Mnemonic:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X . X .
$$ | . . . . O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]


How would you answer this :w2:?

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Offline Sverre
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #6 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:57 am 
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I couldn't solve 188.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 187, 5@3 for ko
$$-------+
$$..XO432|
$$.OOXXO1|
$$...OXOO|
$$...OXXX|
$$...OOO.|
$$.......|[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 189, no ko
$$......O.|
$$...OOO..|
$$...OXXOO|
$$...OX.X.|
$$.O.OXO.X|
$$...X..1.|
$$--------+[/go]
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #7 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:29 pm 
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unkx80 wrote:
To Mnemonic:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X . X .
$$ | . . . . O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]


How would you answer this :w2:?


Arg. Not again. Of course the easiest problem is the hardest one. I don't think black can win the capturing race after the decent, but I'm having trouble coming up with any other move that works.

Ok, I've now tried ever other possible combination that comes to mind and I don't see anything :sad: Let's try the capturing race again.

Ok, how about this. 2 stage approach ko for black? (While editing diagrams I actually noticed, it's only a normal ko and white takes first :sad: :sad: )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 10 at 4
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O 8 O X . . .
$$ | 6 X O O X . . .
$$ | 9 1 3 O X . X .
$$ | . 5 4 7 O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]


If this isn’t it I might as well just give up! I guess I really suck :oops:

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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #8 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:40 pm 
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@Mnemonic

In your diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O 8 O X . . .
$$ | 6 X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 3 O X . X .
$$ | . 5 4 7 O 9 . .
$$ ------------------[/go]


Why not just capture and escape with :b9: ?

White can make a ko after your move (see MW's post).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | 4 X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 3 O X . X .
$$ | . . . . O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]


Black has a better move.


Last edited by mw42 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #9 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Quote:
Why not just capture and escape with :b9: ?

Because that would be too easy :roll:

Last try:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B This?
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | 4 X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 3 O X . X .
$$ | . . . . O 5 . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

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While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #10 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Mnemonic wrote:
Quote:
Why not just capture and escape with :b9: ?

Because that would be too easy :roll:

Last try:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B This?
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | 4 X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 3 O X . X .
$$ | . . . . O 5 . .
$$ ------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . .
$$ | 6 1 3 O X . X .
$$ | . 4 5 . O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

this is ko?

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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #11 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:05 pm 
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Mnemonic wrote:
Quote:
Why not just capture and escape with :b9: ?

Because that would be too easy :roll:

Last try:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B This?
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | 4 X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 3 O X . X .
$$ | . . . . O 5 . .
$$ ------------------[/go]


I believe MW's :w4: is better than mine.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Ko.
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 3 O X . X .
$$ | . 4 6 . O 5 . .
$$ ------------------[/go]


Solution:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X . X .
$$ | . . 3 . O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]
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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #12 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:29 pm 
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hint about 188
mw's solution was my solution too. But it is wrong. If Sverre did not solve it, you better think twice.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #13 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:15 pm 
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solution:
one i posted before is to show that it was not a solution.
bottom seems like a solution.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X . X .
$$ | . . . . O 3 . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

edit:
sorry..
i see the flaw in my reasoning.
this should be correct.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 2 O . O X . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X . X .
$$ | . . 3 . O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #14 Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:08 am 
Honinbo

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OK, I'll bite.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . .
$$ | X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O O X X . . .
$$ | 3 O X O X . . .
$$ | . 1 4 O X . . .
$$ | 5 2 . O X . X .
$$ | . . . . O . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #15 Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:01 am 
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congratulations, bill!
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #16 Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:08 am 
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cyclops wrote:
congratulations, bill!

???? ko was the answer? WOW..i was looking for a unconditional kill.

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"The more we think we know about
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Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #17 Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:08 am 
Honinbo

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Magicwand wrote:
cyclops wrote:
congratulations, bill!

???? ko was the answer? WOW..i was looking for a unconditional kill.


I'll take what I can get. ;)

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #18 Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:09 am 
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Ahh. Of course, white can just clamp immediately. No need to capture first.

I blame Mnemonic for putting that in my head! :lol:
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Offline unkx80
 Post subject: Re: 3 LD's from Maeda elementary
Post #19 Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:08 am 
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Ah, I missed the clamp as well.

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