I like these series.
| Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/ |
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| Fuseki Problem http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3329 |
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| Author: | oso [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Fuseki Problem |
I like these series.
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
Just wondering- where are these problems from? |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Instead of a 118kb jpg photo, you can also consider a diagram, which is much smaller in size and much more useful for people to add moves and variations: You can read about making diagrams and SGF files here-- viewforum.php?f=5 |
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| Author: | oso [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
Oh. Ok, hurr.  this problem: don't be fooled by the names. They are fictional characters. As for the diagram, I confess I don't know who actually played the game. I assume an ameteur from some go server. Why?
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| Author: | Phelan [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
| Author: | Aphelion [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
This should be sente. Edit: I would probably play this move even if its not sente. This move is absolutely humongous as it concerns the base of two groups. |
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
More ideas: Some guesses on how this position occured: |
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| Author: | topazg [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
I find this position really pretty hard. I'm not overly keen on C3, just because Black takes the point I want  This is the exchange I was thinking of, now looking at a pincer at the top as well. However,  is really large too.  @  doesn't really work so well in my eyes, as Black can respond at and deprive White from getting anything. This then makes a less sente point for White to take.I'm kinda torn between one of these, but the both look bigger than anything else to me. |
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
Topazg, its strange, because I had the same reasoning, except that C3 was the point I wanted My reasoning: In this diagram no White stone is wasted. Although  is big, White has perfectly fine ways to proceed locally. The marked   exchanges however, clearly favors White. White is thick all around.In your diagram: 1-2 exchange heavily favors White, but 3-4 exchange is in black's favor. I think White, however, has the thinnest group on the board. Its not too clear to me who is better... |
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| Author: | topazg [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
It's  that's bugging me about letting Black do this. The thinness in the top left feels much more "potentially disastrous" than the bottom somehow, even though White has plenty to worry about down there too.I think White's shoulder hit at D9 (if that's what it was) is just kinda bizarre
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
Mmm, what do you think about this as a response to B7? Its not easy though.... I also want to draw your attention to the fact that C3 means the difference between good potential on the bottom for White vs 2 thin stones, so maybe that can compensate for the top  I also ninja edited my original post so that D9 is now a pincer stone  Edit: Now that I look at it...I'm not sure I like the top diagram either. Maybe W can push from behind? I still feel that C3 is too big a move to give up though, especially with White having invested 3 stones on the bottom. |
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| Author: | oso [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
Do you think we could get a strong player to comment on it? I've been following with interest, and I'd like to know what maybe a dan level player would think? Any dans want to comment? |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
topazg is a dan. Anyway, I'm also kind of torn between 'a' and 'b' below. In a sense, they feel like miai, but only if white takes it (i.e. not black). Since 'b' concerns base of white's corner group, I'm thinking it's probably the best. Black will then take 'a', and I can't decide what's best from there. |
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
I'm starting to think that D9 should be treated lightly: If B takes gote to play at 'a', all is good, otherwise is in perfect position if White thinks its good time to take 'a' for himself.
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| Author: | topazg [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
Yeah, I like that latest one a lot Aphelion. Of course, that makes D9 feel like a mistake somehow, even if White is treating it lightly, I'm left with the slight feeling of "what is it doing there?" Oso, was this one of your games by any chance? |
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
Well, yea, D9 does look like a mistake. However, if you look at this diagram (which is the closest I could make it to a reasonable seeming order of moves), Black made two very bad but urgent moves, but White tenukied to both of them, so White has made at least one mistake. Hence my comment about it being a ddk game I would rather let the mistake be D9, because its easy to treat light. I'm also wondering oso, is this one of your games? |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
Aphelion wrote: Well, yea, D9 does look like a mistake. However, if you look at this diagram (which is the closest I could make it to a reasonable seeming order of moves), Black made two very bad but urgent moves, but White tenukied to both of them, so White has made at least one mistake. Hence my comment about it being a ddk game I would rather let the mistake be D9, because its easy to treat light. I'm also wondering oso, is this one of your games?  is unusual but i might play that depends on my mood. is ddk ish is sdk ish is tdk ish is qdk ish edit: maybe i streach this a liitle but..still it is a bad move.
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| Author: | oso [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
Ah. Sorry. I should have posted all the number of moves from the beginning. No, this isn't one of my games. It's a game from an e-book I downloaded a long time ago. Can't remember where. All I have is the fuseki. 
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
Every move after 3 is wrong, some being horribly so. |
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| Author: | amnal [ Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fuseki Problem |
oso wrote: Ah. Sorry. I should have posted all the number of moves from the beginning. No, this isn't one of my games. It's a game from an e-book I downloaded a long time ago. Can't remember where. All I have is the fuseki. 4: Bad. This invites black C3 or D4, at which point white's stone has become weak and black has made territory - so white's move has forced white to get strong. This kind of underneath shoulder hit is usually bad, for exactly this reason. 5: Bad. If black wants to go this way, D4 is a harsh way to punish white for making a bad shape. C3 is an easy way to take territory. 6: Bad. Black C3 now leaves the D3 stone completely wasted, and white without a base. C3 seems essential for white to make good shape, and leaves black with bad aji if white plays C6. 7: Bad. C3 is a vital poitn for both groups in that corner, and sente for both against the other. It is a vital fuseki point. 8: Bad, because black C3 makes his group strong and makes white's group weak. Although it is an extension from the upper left, it seems to not address white's main problems. 9: Bad. This underneath shoulder hit invites white C9, black D8 and white E8 to seal black in strongly (there are other variations, but submissive). Because the shape is too bad for black, he should rarely want to play this kind of move, just like white D3 was wrong earlier. Black C3 still seems like the vital shape point - it is still important for the safety of two competing groups. 10: Bad. This ignores C3 and C9, both of which are very big shape points. I think C3 is the more important, because then black must crawl and the D9 stone is light. 11: (Assuming this is the intent of the marked stone), bad, because black has two big problems in the bottom left. I think he should solve them, probably with C3 to leave white in bad shape on the bottom. This is a good example of a lower level opening where something important is overlooked which could give one player an early massive advantage. There is some great stuff to learn from it, if you can understand why both players' moves were bad, but it is a funny opening problem. |
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