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Offline willemien
 Post subject: killing lines
Post #1 Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:25 am 
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was wondering at what distance a line accross the board would be killing for the opponent

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Can white still make a living group?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |[/go]


(and if he cannot move the line down a line :lol: )

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Offline Li Kao
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #2 Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:57 am 
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So basically the Biggest side problem similar to the Biggest Corner problem

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Last edited by Li Kao on Fri May 27, 2011 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline willemien
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #3 Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:47 am 
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Li Kao wrote:
So basically the Biggest side problem similar to the BiggestCorner


something around that l i n e :lol:

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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #4 Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Can white still make a living group?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The answer, given two dan level players, is "probably not, but it's fun trying!"
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #5 Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 2:56 am 
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Interesting - while I've not tried it, and am certainly nowhere near dan level, my intutition would be that a strong white player would find it fairly easy to live. Not only is there all that space, but black's first line stones could get short of liberties, and that aji must be useful for something.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #6 Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:37 am 
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robinz wrote:
Interesting - while I've not tried it, and am certainly nowhere near dan level, my intutition would be that a strong white player would find it fairly easy to live. Not only is there all that space, but black's first line stones could get short of liberties, and that aji must be useful for something.
Not sure why we're hiding, but imagine that white peeps at each spot around the edge. Or, imagine that white plays some moves in the center, then black plays some responses--Black is much closer to having eyes. His stones won't die.


If you have seven clear spaces to the side, I think you'll definitely live. Beyond that, I'm not really so sure.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #7 Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:00 am 
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Um.

Black's stones are already alive. Picture black connecting everything except the corners. Four eyes.

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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #8 Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 11:46 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
robinz wrote:
Interesting - while I've not tried it, and am certainly nowhere near dan level, my intutition would be that a strong white player would find it fairly easy to live. Not only is there all that space, but black's first line stones could get short of liberties, and that aji must be useful for something.
Not sure why we're hiding, but imagine that white peeps at each spot around the edge. Or, imagine that white plays some moves in the center, then black plays some responses--Black is much closer to having eyes. His stones won't die.


If you have seven clear spaces to the side, I think you'll definitely live. Beyond that, I'm not really so sure.


daniel_the_smith wrote:
Um.

Black's stones are already alive. Picture black connecting everything except the corners. Four eyes.


Daniel's got it right - black doesn't really need to worry about anything - he doesn't even have to answer a peep from the second line directly (or at all) except after most of the board has filled up and the fight has made it to the edge where white is desperately seeking a tesuji.

The "shape game" (as I've heard it called) is all about white scrambling for life. Black has nothing to worry about and he can focus his thickness like a laser beam, solely intent on killing. White wins if he can make two eyes - territory doesn't count. It doesn't matter if 120 stones die and eight live, if white finds two eyes anywhere he wins. Black has a superb advantage in that it is very difficult for white to contrive a ladder that works. So white has to rely on nets and driving tesuji.

It's awesome practice for reading (for both players), for sabaki (for white), and for fighting in situations where you should have an advantage but unfortunately have to kill (for black) -- "It's close, my moyo's my only large area... ah, he invaded! Must defend territory! Fly, my pretties!" (cackling is heard as the winged monkeys go forth to bring back the head of the white group)
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #9 Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 1:43 pm 
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We play this game a lot at tournaments and stuff and it's a fun way to relax between rounds. I've seldom seem white not succeed in getting two eyes, so the focus is usually on how long it takes. The record I've heard of was somewhere around 20 moves. It usually takes at least 60, sometimes over 100.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #10 Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 3:35 pm 
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how about playing Markovich game with this board?
who say white can live? i will play and kill :)

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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #11 Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:19 pm 
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You're on! I'm making the thread in "Other versions of turn-based games"
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Offline Numsgil
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #12 Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:42 pm 
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(Clicky for the lazy people of the future where such things aren't as easy to find)

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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #13 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:50 am 
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willemien wrote:
was wondering at what distance a line accross the board would be killing for the opponent

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Can white still make a living group?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |[/go]


(and if he cannot move the line down a line :lol: )


Would the answer be different if the width were infinite?
What about living between two black lines ( possibly infinite )?
Living in an empty black rectangle?
Many formulas to discover.
Would the MW-Shaddy contest be affected if the goban were infinite with the same setup and the goal to live inside?
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #14 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:25 am 
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cyclops wrote:
Would the MW-Shaddy contest be affected if the goban were infinite with the same setup and the goal to live inside?
Yes.

Leave it to me to cherry-pick the easy question.

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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: killing lines
Post #15 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:11 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
Leave it to me to cherry-pick the easy question.

You must be very clever. Even more if you could explain.

edit: Never mind, hyperpape. Indeed the answer is obvious. It is probably more difficult to kill in my variant because he might escape through the holes.
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