3-4 High approach low tight pincer question

Numsgil · #1

I don't really know many 3-4 joseki sequences, but in an effort to grow as a player I've started playing 3-4 approaches and pincers. The idea being that I should be able to experiment freely on the board using tactical fighting rules, and then compare the result in game with known josekis and see where I differ and try to figure out why.

In that spirit, this was the board position from a recent game. I was white; white to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So I followed the proverb "a tricky rabit has two escape holes" and descended like so. The idea being that I could aim at either 'a' or 'b' for eyespace.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X b . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . O . 8 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X a . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Black responds like this, trying to seal me in (I don't think it's all that good in this position because the top isn't developable for black, so it's a single purpose move):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . 9 . , . . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Looking this up in a joseki database afterwards, this is locally fine play so far. In this position I decide that the top is strong enough, so I attach to grab some of the corner. My thinking in game is that this would be sente, and I could then run out and/or attack black's pincer stone. And black obliged, and we played thusly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ . . . X . , 3 . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

In post game stone doodling, though, I wondered: does black actually need to play 4? Can he instead play like this and seal white into the corner/in a low position?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ . . . X . , 3 . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

The strongest refutation I've found so far in my stone doodling is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 8 5 3 X 6 9 | $$ . . . 0 1 X O 7 . | $$ . . . X 2 4 O . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . X O O X X O | $$ . . . X O X O O . | $$ . . . X X X O . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

And black has sente to take an extension along the top or fortify the cutting points and just be overwhelmingly thick. I think this greatly favors black. Which is why I think the attach and withdraw isn't in any of the joseki databases I have.

If white tries to be greedy instead, all the variations I've tried have his position collapsing or just crawling along the second line forever.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . 9 7 5 4 X 6 . | $$ . 0 8 . 1 X O . . | $$ . . . X 2 3 O . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I'd be interested in others' thoughts. Maybe there's some tesuji I'm missing and this is actually okay for white? Or maybe there's a more direct way to punish white?

Bill Spight · #2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Cut sector line $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . 9 . , . . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . 0 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Solomon · #3

The purpose of :w8:

is to split B's stones into two groups and play aggressive, not to settle in the corner. So this variation

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ . . . X . , 3 . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

is a no-no. You want to break out and ensure Black is still separated:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . a . . . X . . . | $$ . . . X . , . . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . b . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

You want one of 'a' and 'b' and since Black can't play two moves in a row, you can. 'a' ensures Black doesn't stabilize his top group and works well with the 4-4 stone on the left in your main diagram, whereas 'b' pincers R13. As long as your group is safe, you go for one or the other and keep the pressure. So it helps to have support close by to play a move like :w8:

in your second diagram.

If you want to settle rather than try to fight, then instead of:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ . . . X . , 3 . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Just attach right away:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Numsgil · #4

So what's the refutation if white does try to get the attach and withdraw?

Solomon · #5

Numsgil wrote:

So what's the refutation if white does try to get the attach and withdraw?

You already showed it in your original post?

Numsgil · #6

That was just me throwing stones around, I have no idea if it works

Bill Spight · #7

"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ . . . X . , 3 . . | $$ . . . . . O . W . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

-

makes

a bad play.

Dusk Eagle · #8

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ . . . X . , 3 . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . a . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I would say this diagram is quite favorable for black in and of itself, though :b4:

at 'a' is still probably better

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ . . . 6 . , 3 . . | $$ . . . . . O . 5 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

If we reorder the moves like above, :w1:

-

are a joseki, but then why on earth would white play :w5:

?

Also, one minor thing: :b8:

in your stone doodling diagram would be better at :w9:

below. Otherwise white will push through at :w9:

rather than play at 'a'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 8 5 3 X 6 a | $$ . . . 9 1 X O 7 . | $$ . . . X 2 4 O . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Ninja'd by Bill.

dedroid · #9

just noting something

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . 9 7 5 4 X 6 . | $$ . 0 8 . 1 X O . . | $$ . . . X 2 3 O . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

here 6 could be at 7

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 6 5 4 X . . | $$ . . . . 1 X O . . | $$ . . . X 2 3 O . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

i like this better for black.

kivi · **#10**

Numsgil wrote:

The strongest refutation I've found so far in my stone doodling is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 8 5 3 X 6 9 | $$ . . . 0 1 X O 7 . | $$ . . . X 2 4 O . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

2 at 5:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 2 4 X . . | $$ . 9 7 5 1 X O 0 . | $$ . . 8 X 6 3 O . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

3-4 High approach low tight pincer question

Who is online