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| Dead? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4320 |
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| Author: | Koroviev [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Dead? |
From a real game of mine, I had a group in the corner from a 3-3 invasion. My opponent killed it. Is this group definitely dead? I can't find a way for it to live. Was 2 my mistake? I played it assuming that White needed to reinforce first, after which I could make two eyes. |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead? |
It's not dead, it's at least ko or seki. It just so happens that Sensei's Library's current article of the week is about exactly this shape: Walkie Talkie Seven Excellent and extensive analysis there, to which I can add little, other than to say that  was indeed a mistake, and should be the 2-1 point
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| Author: | Solomon [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead? |
Like this, it's easy life for Black: But with your , it appears ko is best you've got:But this ko is better for you, because it's multiple steps for White: After White takes with 7, he can't fill at the 1-1 if he wishes to kill (it's a seki if White gets to fill T15). At the same time, he needs to take care of T15. |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead? |
@araban: There's no need to play  in your second diagram, you can let white start the ko (or make seki)
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| Author: | Solomon [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead? |
HermanHiddema wrote: @araban: There's no need to play Ah, indeed. I'm assuming you mean third diagram.
in your second diagram, you can let white start the ko (or make seki) |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead? |
Araban wrote: HermanHiddema wrote: @araban: There's no need to play Ah, indeed. I'm assuming you mean third diagram. in your second diagram, you can let white start the ko (or make seki)Oh, yeah, third diagram 
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| Author: | lightvector [ Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead? |
Just considering the internal shape, is this way better endgame? Black gets 6 points. This way, black can also get 6 points if he gets ''a''. But if white gets ''a'' first, black only has 5. |
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| Author: | Solomon [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead? |
lightvector wrote: Just considering the internal shape, is this way better endgame? Black gets 6 points. This way, black can also get 6 points if he gets ''a''. But if white gets ''a'' first, black only has 5. |
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| Author: | Koroviev [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead? |
Thanks all! I think I was blasé about defending this because the group was the result of a 3-3 invasion - and a 3-3 invasion can't die, right?  On a related note, it's one of go's fascinations that positions from beginner games still provoke discussion amongst stronger players. Araban wrote: I don't think it's 'way better', but perhaps it is better. I think he meant 'is it better endgame this way' rather than 'way better.' |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead? |
lightvector wrote: Just considering the internal shape, is this way better endgame? Black gets 6 points. This way, black can also get 6 points if he gets ''a''. But if white gets ''a'' first, black only has 5. Yes, is optimal in the corner. If White plays at a, Black plays at b, and vice versa. (I have added  to tighten up the outside. )
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead? |
Best play depends upon the ko threat situation. Kos generally favor the invader, because he has fewer stones at stake. I think that this sequence is normally optimal under Japanese/Korean scoring, as the corner point cannot be a White point. Under area scoring, I think that is normally optimal. It is a White sente.White has a follow-up for seki. Under area scoring Black has 1 point of territory. (Edited for area scoring.) |
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