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Author:	oblivion [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1050[/sgf-full] Attachment: File comment: Test Untitled.sgf [270 Bytes] Downloaded 656 times I have come across this "Joseki" a few times and i'm not able to see a good answer when playing white. I hope this haven't been posted yet. So what next for white?

Author: Solomon [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:08 pm ]

Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.

First off, always take what Kogo says with a grain of salt.

Anyways, isn't this simple sequence good enough? B can't both protect the weakness in the corner and prevent White from capturing :b5:

with 'b'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 7 6 8 . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a 1 O O 5 b . . . . . . $$ | . . . X 2 X O . . X . . . . $$ | . . . 4 3 X . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

There is still the bad aji at 'a' :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . a X O O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . X . . . . $$ | . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Author:	oblivion [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . a X O O . 3 4 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O X O 5 X , . . . . $$ \| . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` You misplace one stone in the diagram, and now white need to have the Ladder breaker or i am wrong?

Author:	Solomon [ Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
oblivion wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . a X O O . 3 4 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O X O 5 X , . . . . $$ \| . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` You misplace one stone in the diagram, and now white need to have the Ladder breaker or i am wrong? Oops, yeah I misplaced the stone. It looks like it can be remedied though regardless of ladder: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . a X O O . 5 6 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O X O . X , . . . . $$ \| . 1 . O X X 2 . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`

Author:	entropi [ Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Araban wrote: oblivion wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . a X O O . 3 4 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O O X 2 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O X O 5 X , . . . . $$ \| . 1 . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` You misplace one stone in the diagram, and now white need to have the Ladder breaker or i am wrong? Oops, yeah I misplaced the stone. It looks like it can be remedied though regardless of ladder: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . a X O O . 5 6 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O X O . X , . . . . $$ \| . 1 . O X X 2 . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` But is whites position better than black now? The two white stones (d15) look a bit strange. Black can still play at the head of the two stones (g14), threatening ladder (at h16) and then capture the two white stones on the left.

Author:	topazg [ Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . a X O O . 5 6 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O X O . X , . . . . $$ \| . 1 . O X X 2 . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 7 3 . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` Certainly, I'd be interested if Black can play this well enough to put White at a local disadvantage.

Author:	mw42 [ Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O O . 5 6 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O O X 4 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O X O . X , . . . . $$ \| . 1 8 O X X 2 . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 7 3 . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` I think white can play this move, no? Seems dangerous for black.

Author: topazg [ Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:45 am ]

Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . . X O O X O . . . . . . $$ | . 3 . X O X O . X , . . . . $$ | . X 2 O X X O . . . . . . . $$ | . 4 6 O . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 7 5 1 X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . . X O O X O . . . . . . $$ | . 3 . X O X O . X , . . . . $$ | . X 2 O X X O . . . . . . . $$ | . 5 6 O . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 1 X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

From here?

Author:	mw42 [ Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Hmm, you're right. White doesn't seem to have a good response locally. Another sad day for the empty triangle, thanks to topazg. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O O . X O . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X O O X O . . . . . . $$ \| . 2 . X O X O . X , . . . . $$ \| . X . O X X O . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` Having a look at this move next. Also it seems white can extend to before he ataris the cutting stone.

Author: Dusk Eagle [ Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:36 pm ]

Post subject: Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X O O . X O . . . . . . $$ | . 3 . X O O X O . . . . . . $$ | . O 5 X O X O . X , . . . . $$ | . X 1 O X X O . . . . . . . $$ | . 4 2 O . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 8 X O O . X O . . . . . . $$ | 0 9 7 X O O X O . . . . . . $$ | . O 3 X O X O . X , . . . . $$ | 6 X 1 O X X O . . . . . . . $$ | . 4 2 O . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 5 X X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Ko? If so, that's some unnice aji black has in his position. Of course, black has other moves that :b1:

, but from my reading :b1:

is the strongest resistance. Of course, I haven't read it out very thoroughly due to lack of time, so there's a good chance I'm missing something.

Author:	topazg [ Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki "disastrous mistake" question.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$Bc $$ ----------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X O O . X O . . . . . . $$ \| . 7 . X O O X O . . . . . . $$ \| . O . X O X O . X , . . . . $$ \| . X 1 O X X O . . . . . . . $$ \| . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . 6 4 X X . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` Maybe this?

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