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 Post subject: Komuku - pincer - joseki deviation
Post #1 Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:59 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Joseki deviation
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O X . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I didn't find this variation in any dictionnary (josekipedia, dailyjoseki and kogo's).
I had a bad result for white there, so I think there's a way to keep the result at least even.

What would you do for white there ?

Probably E18, F17, F18, then black hane and how to continue ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Joseki deviation
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 O 2 4 5 . .
$$ | . . X O X 3 . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


It looks like white is losing the semeai...

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 Post subject: Re: Komuku - pincer - joseki deviation
Post #2 Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Joseki deviation
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 X O O O X . .
$$ | . 2 X O X X a . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . b c . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


This seems sufficient, unless I've managed to miss something. White should first play at a, though, which will leave black's position completely destroyed as it seems black can't kill the cutting stone. If white has the ladder, he doesn't even need to put this effort into killing the corner stones, of course.

I don't think there is a good way for black to play now. He can wedge at b to try to get liberties, but even if white can't block, I don't think it's good for black. I haven't read out what is actually best.

Edit: I can't find any wedge tesuji for black. b does not work because after the cut at a, black's stones are short of liberties if white gets a stone at c.

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 Post subject: Re: Komuku - pincer - joseki deviation
Post #3 Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:06 pm 
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I found :w1: in the game, but black wedged and I misread. I see now how this works for black, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Komuku - pincer - joseki deviation
Post #4 Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:09 pm 
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I'm not so sure anymore :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Joseki deviation
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 X O O O X . .
$$ | . . X O X X . . .
$$ | . 4 O X . . . . .
$$ | . 6 O X . . . . .
$$ | . 5 2 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Joseki deviation
$$ ------------------
$$ | . 5 3 6 7 . 8 . .
$$ | 4 O X O O O X . .
$$ | . 2 X O X X . . .
$$ | . X O X . . . . .
$$ | 9 X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O 1 O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Does this means white has to play :w3: at :w5: in the first diagram, or am I missing the obvious ?

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 Post subject: Re: Komuku - pincer - joseki deviation
Post #5 Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:15 pm 
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lorill wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Joseki deviation
$$ ------------------
$$ | . 5 3 6 7 . 8 . .
$$ | 4 O X O O O X . .
$$ | . 2 X O X X . . .
$$ | . X O X . . . . .
$$ | 9 X O X . . . . .
$$ | . O 1 O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Does this means white has to play :w3: at :w5: in the first diagram, or am I missing the obvious ?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc The obvious?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O O . O . 1 . .
$$ | X O X O O O X 8 .
$$ | . X X O X X 4 . .
$$ | . X O X 3 5 6 . .
$$ | . X O X 2 7 . . .
$$ | . O O O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Komuku - pincer - joseki deviation
Post #6 Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:20 pm 
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Probably, thanks.

No way I'd read that far in a game. :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Komuku - pincer - joseki deviation
Post #7 Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:11 am 
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lorill wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Joseki deviation
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 O 2 4 5 . .
$$ | . . X O X 3 . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


It looks like white is losing the semeai...


Why not simply that?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Joseki deviation
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O O X 4 7
$$ | . . X O X X 1 3 .
$$ | . . O X . . 2 5 .
$$ | . . O X . . 6 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Joseki deviation
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O O X 5 .
$$ | . . X O X X 1 2 .
$$ | . . O X 4 . 3 . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Looks bad enough for black ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Komuku - pincer - joseki deviation
Post #8 Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:09 am 
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What flovermind said. Black's shape is way too bad to hane there. Just cut.

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