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3-4 point high approach diagonal play
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Author:  hyperpape [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:37 am ]
Post subject:  3-4 point high approach diagonal play
In a recent game, I had just made the exchange of the two marked stones. The position is quite strange, but has a few similarities to a chinese opening, and maybe is worth asking about. Black is hoping white will play at a, making his group heavy, given his star point stone. So I think that move is bad, but I still don't know how to proceed. I thought b leads to a cramped group. I played c, but immediately felt silly. Even if it were a good move, I had no idea how to follow up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B a . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , W . b . . X . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


So my questions are how white should play in the first diagram. Then, after :w1: and :b2:, how should white handle the situation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . X . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


(edit: a stone in the text was not displaying properly)
Author:  amnal [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Your white a doesn't make him properly heavy, and weakens black's two stones on the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 1 . . a . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , W . . 3 . X . b . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


White gets a two space extension, and probably can't be sealed in. Although black can push from the left and build a bit of a wall, white should still be able to break out, and can aim at the b area whilst doing so. Possibly white 3 would be better at a.

So, I think you overestimate how heavy white can become. If black's star point were a space closer, white would be much more worried, as this makes him properly cramped.

That said, I don't know if this is the best line of play, and white probably does have alternatives. It would likely depend on the rest of the board. A normal sort of shapes might be :w1: at :b2: to escape lightly, though this is more normal in the chinese shape where it's more important to escape and not be cramped, so I don't think it is necessary here.

Your actual move also is not a completely unusual idea, though it's quite loose and ends up looking floating. Building a wall in the centre is a reasonable plan if this benefits you more than splitting the side (so this depends on the rest of the board). Possibly something like this might be better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 2 4 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , W 3 . 5 . X . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


I don't know what the best local moves are, but my main idea with :w1: would be to prevent black simply extending along the left side. This way limits him more. I don't think this way of playing is necessary, as my first diagram seems good enough and has a good plan, but it's unlikely to be actively bad if white's new influence can be useful.
Author:  gaius [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
How to answer depends strongly on the position. In this position I would just block at 'a', because after blacks necessary defense at :b2:, you get a perfect move at :w3:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Good for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , W . . . . X . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Black's move is normally played when there is already a stone in position to attack white. For example, it is sometimes feasible in a Chinese-kind of opening. Then it is normally bad for white to block, because he has no good extension afterwards:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Bad for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 1 . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , W . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

This, by the way, is the reason that you normally don't approach low in the Chinese opening. The result becomes exactly the same and white is still doing poorly:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Bad for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

However, on the whole board, the result can be quite good for white after the two-space jump, so black cannot thoughtlessly play the diagonal move. For instance, on a mostly empty board, it becomes clearly bad for black; white's influence is superior and black's moyo is not developing well.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Clearly good for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 2 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , W . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  hyperpape [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
I see that I was overgeneralizing from the chinese. It makes sense now that playing low and undercutting black is probably good.

I believe this is how the board was. I think the actual circumstances make the move I chose look worse than it does in those lines y'all showed.

Gaius--I will have to meditate on your last diagram. I wouldn't play that way in a thousand years, but that's probably because I'm set in my ways.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Clearly good for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , W . . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[/quote]
Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Gaius, I disagree with your last diagram. I think white has three thin stones in the middle of nowhere doing not much of anything.
Author:  Horibe [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Shaddy wrote:
Gaius, I disagree with your last diagram. I think white has three thin stones in the middle of nowhere doing not much of anything.


I think Shaddy is right, this does not look good for white. Perhaps he overstates a little...

Maybe the e16 could be seen as a forcing move, with a submissive (though big) response and I personally think d10 works ok with the corner stone.

Still e13 is instant thinness in a box and makes the whole sequence certainly questionable
Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Shaddy wrote:
Gaius, I disagree with your last diagram. I think white has three thin stones in the middle of nowhere doing not much of anything.


i will have to agree withe Shaddy because D15 is better move than :w1:
:w1: had good idea but too thin so it is wrong.

also.. i will have to say D17 is also wrong because D15 is an ideal move for white.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
I like Gaius' diagram. :bc: and :b2: are low, :w1: and :w3: are light. They cannot be called thin because that would imply they are trying to stay together. Rather, they can be considered forcing moves, to which black has submitted, twice. From here, white's original approach is eminently suitable to be sacrificed.

I don't like D17 as an alternative, that is just too heavy for me. It indicates that you want to hang on to the original approach stone, which I don't.

Personally, I would ignore black's diagonal move and play elsewhere with :w1:, probably approach the upper right. Black has submitted, no need to play in this corner anymore for now.
Author:  gaius [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Interesting, I would not have expected that diagramme to give so much debate between dan players! To me it was self-evident that the original stone becomes very easily sacrificable this way, so I don't really see how you can call the position "thin".

To see why I called it good for white, consider this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Normal, completely even
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Extra influence for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 4 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would say the value of :w1: and :w3: as kikashi stones exceeds the territorial value of :b2: and :b4:, especially since the black stones don't seem to contribute to black's moyo very well. Then again, I am only a humble amateur :).

By the way, Herman's idea of tenuki-ing completely seems really interesting as well! Definitely an idea to consider...
Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Herman, certainly 1 and 3 don't care if they are connected, but if I play C13 next or so, white cannot let both of them get cut off. But if white adds a move, the whole thing looks pretty overconcentrated, especially since black's position on top is very thick.
Author:  Solomon [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
I would rather play like so:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black is flat and the Chinese opening is meaningless
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 2 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, Black won't really play :b2: , as it is too insipid. Instead, :b2: at :w3: or J15 looks better, and White can still make a light shape in either cases. Then again, even though I say I'd play like this, this probably won't ever have to occur because I never approach the 3-4 like this in this position anyways.
Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Araban wrote:
I would rather play like so:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black is flat and the Chinese opening is meaningless
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 2 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, Black won't really play :b2: , as it is too insipid. Instead, :b2: at :w3: or J15 looks better, and White can still make a light shape in either cases. Then again, even though I say I'd play like this, this probably won't ever have to occur because I never approach the 3-4 like this in this position anyways.
i dont like your knight move because black will push n cut.
Author:  Solomon [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Magicwand wrote:
i dont like your knight move because black will push n cut.
Then what about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 2 4 . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think, as long as White makes flexible shape in this area and prevents moyo possibilities, it is good enough.
Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Araban wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
i dont like your knight move because black will push n cut.
Then what about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 2 4 . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think, as long as White makes flexible shape in this area and prevents moyo possibilities, it is good enough.


It would be wonderful if black plays as above...but if they are strong.. they will not play :b2:
if i was black i would play as below..(after few min of thinking but i could not find any other play for black that make sense)
i think below board positon is slightly better for black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


edit: in Araban's suggestion black is helping settling of akward shape of white. that is why i say stronger player will not play that.
Author:  jts [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Is a contact move here not strengthening white unnecessarily?
Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
jts wrote:
Is a contact move here not strengthening white unnecessarily?


yes but do you have any other suggestion? i tried to find something but could not find any
Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
HermanHiddema wrote:
I don't like D17 as an alternative, that is just too heavy for me. It indicates that you want to hang on to the original approach stone, which I don't.

Personally, I would ignore black's diagonal move and play elsewhere with :w1:, probably approach the upper right. Black has submitted, no need to play in this corner anymore for now.


i dont see why you call them heavy. many professionals play as below and IMO it is a tight move that is saying "i will not let you have anything"
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Clearly good for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , W . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


now compare above with below:
although below is playable i will choose above variation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Extra influence for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 4 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Solomon [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
Magicwand wrote:
Araban wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
i dont like your knight move because black will push n cut.
Then what about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B 2 4 . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think, as long as White makes flexible shape in this area and prevents moyo possibilities, it is good enough.


It would be wonderful if black plays as above...but if they are strong.. they will not play :b2:
if i was black i would play as below..(after few min of thinking but i could not find any other play for black that make sense)
i think below board positon is slightly better for black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . . . . 6 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


edit: in Araban's suggestion black is helping settling of akward shape of white. that is why i say stronger player will not play that.
Yes, and I mentioned this:
Quote:
Of course, Black won't really play :b2: , as it is too insipid. Instead, :b2: at :w3: or J15 looks better, and White can still make a light shape in either cases.
I am certain I have a random Chinese book somewhere that covers variations pertaining to this, such as:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Fortunately the Chinese opening is very common in pro games (especially nowadays, it is probably the most common opening for Black) so there are plenty of reference games. Unfortunately the approach is not so common :).
Author:  ez4u [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3-4 point high approach diagonal play
My 2 yen worth. :blackeye: Here is some feedback from GoGoD.
Pros normally use the diagonal play early in the fuseki when there is a double wing formation of some kind. A very typical example is below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Gu Li - Niu Yutian, 2007 China Weiqi League, 2007-12-15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . 1 b . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 5 d 3 , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In GoGoD there are several hundred examples of the diagonal play at :b2:. Black wants to prevent White from settling easily in the corner. The reply at :w3: is the most common response but there are many others, including "a" through "d" (depending on the surrounding stones, which can be quite different from this example).

In hyperpape's example there is no stone equivalent to K4 above. This means that Black can not easily pressure White and the original diagonal play can be seen as potentially submissive.

In the Chinese fuseki discussed in this thread, there are very few examples in GoGoD of White approaching the 3-4 stone immediately on move 6. There are no cases where White responds with the diagonal play. The closest we come to that is below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Yang Shihai - Song Xuelin, 1st Qisheng, 1998-10-20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 . . . |
$$ | . . X , 6 . . . . , . . . . 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The left side of hyperpape's full-board diagram (below) is relatively rare in professional play. Pros most often approach low at "a", and are as likely to split the side at "b" as they are to approach high at "c".
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , c . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

One way this has arisen is through the following minor variant of the mini-Chinese...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Xie He - Qiu Jun, 1st Longxing, 2008-04-15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 9 . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or this one...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Xie Hei - Zhong Wenjing, China Weiqi League, 2008-05-10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 1 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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