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3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5172 |
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Author: | Phelan [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
I've had a similar situation in two games, where other players suggested the below was the norm: to probe first on the other corner, and only then to follow the rest of the joseki. Is this the best way? If so, how does the probe change the rest of the joseki? If you want, you can see the rest of the game (where i neglected the probe) in the hidden: |
Author: | illluck [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
Probing first certainly is one idea, but I doubt neglecting the probe is a big issue. |
Author: | ez4u [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
These days the probe is normal in the absence of other positional factors. For example, consider the following diagram. Here the approach in the upper right is the first event of the game so there is nothing else of real significance on the board. Black approaches at ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Your game situation is different however because of the other stones on the board. The advice is actually incorrect. In this case it is naive to expect Black to continue with ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Two more points from GoGoD: * In the position below pros are twice as likely to approach with "a" rather than ![]() * In the seventy examples where White does approach high at ![]() ![]() |
Author: | daal [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
illluck wrote: Probing first certainly is one idea, but I doubt neglecting the probe is a big issue. Indeed. Here's a (commented) pro game in which the joseki occurs right at the beginning and the probe isn't played: http://ranka.intergofed.org/?page_id=7003 |
Author: | EdLee [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:08 am ] |
Post subject: | |
ez4u wrote: As always YMMV! ![]() Phelan wrote: where other players suggested... Phelan, what were their (approx.) levels?
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Author: | Mef [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
ez4u wrote: Interesting! If feel if I were black in this situation, I would be tempted to ignore the approach and take the cut: Is there a particular reason this isn't good for black? The only thing I see is that perhaps the marked stones are a little too far away so it may be easier for white to activate ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Phelan [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
Dave, thanks, that's the explanation I wanted. ![]() ![]() Ed: One was stronger than me, but I don't remember the level. The other was the 6k I lost to in the game above. Mef, I always worry about the cut too, that's why I usually don't play the probe. |
Author: | amnal [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:18 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
Mef wrote: Interesting! If feel if I were black in this situation, I would be tempted to ignore the approach and take the cut: Is there a particular reason this isn't good for black? The only thing I see is that perhaps the marked stones are a little too far away so it may be easier for white to activate ![]() ![]() Playing 7 straight away is not necessary, and seems quite boring. It's backing down and saying 'sorry yes right I will live here slowly yes sorry'. Instead, how about something more active for white? I have no idea what is best, but in the diagram below white is taking the initiative more. Black retains invasion points on the top side, and he can't easily develop the right side without leaving more such weaknesses. 7, a or b would be my immediate thoughts to try and wrest the initiative from black. I think this way is fine for both, but it wouldn't be if white just backed down. If my opponent played c, I'd expect it to be hard to handle, so I've included it as a possibility. It seems like a hard way with many dangers, though, and perhaps outright bad. d and e are where my eye is drawn to on the top. White can aim at these points later. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
As amnal says, white absolutely musn't save his stone with ![]() As Dave says, the presence of the 2 black stones on the upper side makes a difference here. One other possibility that I find appealing as black (to not dociley follow white's orders) is to pincer as below. As explained in Dave's first diagram, if you just finish the joseki then the ![]() ![]() ![]() Locally speaking, white should pressure the corner at a above as black didn't defend there, but the gentler b is also possible. Black's plan is to cut and fight if white plays a, as the black stones on the top side will help in the fighting to come. Something to note here is white doesn't play ![]() ![]() In fact I just did a database search of this side position (without even the black stones on the top side, the pincer is playable even without the that support) and white attached at a only 4 times, but played the knight's move at b 43 times, which seems to confirm the fight is good for black. |
Author: | Magicwand [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
i will give you my opinion |
Author: | gogameguru [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
This is a really interesting discussion. I have another suggestion. It's not necessarily better or worse than the suggestions above, just another possible style of play you could adopt. Also, I agree with Dave that the probe in the lower right (while it is a cool tactical idea) is weird in this opening. In this game white could just make the solid connection in the top right to limit black's potential at the top more and support an invasion later. There's no need to be fancy. You could go so far as to say that white's solid connection is the reason why black's attachment underneath isn't so great in this opening. Some of the ideas below I learned from Go Seigen's book A Way of Play for the 21st Century. This isn't the exact position discussed though. If the game goes like other people have been suggesting though, black can play more tightly, with ![]() For what it's worth, I think white should play 'a', even with the looser pincer (then black can switch to the lower right). I think 'b' is something of an overplay and just gives black what he wants. I know I'd be happy if white played 'b'. If white goes ahead and attaches anyway, black can play the hane with ![]() In the diagram above there's no totally satisfactory way for white to make shape now. I think the best white can do is 'a', because 'b' will lead to an unfavourable fight and 'c' is even heavier than 'b' (after black just plays 'a' - white 7 isn't an important stone). If white continues as above, the game looks a bit better for black because white played too many stones in the top right and black has already erased white's thickness, so can happily take gote profit with ![]() What if white fights though? So white has to try something like this instead, but it's hard to play for a trade because white is heavy and black is flexible. It's true that this variation would work even better if the marked black stone was at 'c', but that's only because white repeatedly asked to fight when it wasn't appropriate for the situation. That's why white should just play the soft knight's move in the first diagram, and before that, the solid connection in the top right. If white plays the soft knight's move, black will get sente and won't have any weaknesses, but if the marked stone was at 'c', white could look forward to invading around 'd' later and the game would be easier for white. |
Author: | ez4u [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
Just for info. In October, Cho Chikun played Kataoka Satoshi on Japanese TV in the NHK Cup... I can't recall who the commentator was but he said that he had never seen the close pincer at ![]() |
Author: | xed_over [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:47 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 3-4 high approach: probe, then joseki |
ez4u wrote: Just for info. In October, Cho Chikun played Kataoka Satoshi on Japanese TV in the NHK Cup... I can't recall who the commentator was but he said that he had never seen the close pincer at ![]() It was O Rissei 王 立誠 Attachment:
File comment: october nhk commentator
kai.jpg [ 32.05 KiB | Viewed 7555 times ] |
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