Life In 19x19 :: Redstone problem 1

I'm missing something ...

@Bill

Hold on, you can suicide ....:

EDIT: Bingo??

EDIT: Ignore top sequence, will need redoing as I had a brainfart

@Mark: Don't say I'm not giving this variant a fair chance

@Bill:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 9 2 0 | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 5 6 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 7 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 8 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm11 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 2 X 1 O O O | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

And now I'm back to something like this, which loses for White again, or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 9 2 0 | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 6 8 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 5 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 7 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm11 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 1 . C | $$ | O 3 X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm14 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C 2 1 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X 3 C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

And now White wins. I'm amazing at playing to lose it seems

So...:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O . 2 . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 7 8 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 5 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 6 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | 5 O O O 1 X 2 | $$ | O 4 X 3 O O O | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | 7 O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X 6 C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X 8 C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm17 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | O O O O O 1 C | $$ | O C 2 O O O O | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | O O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X X C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X X C | $$ ---------------[/go]

See, I've done it again????

The key now seems to be to recognise there are an odd number of dame, to make sure you play one first instead of filling your own liberties. But, on the other hand, one of the key alternatives seems to be to fill your opponent's liberties, which always sounds like a better option. If you suicide two stones (by adding one to a single stone), you seem to buy yourself an extra move, unless your opponent responds by making the point unplayable. Unless....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 7 2 8 | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 5 6 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 4 X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O 1 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 3 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C 1 . O O O | $$ | O O O O O O X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X 2 C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Playing in a two eye point to prevent your opponent getting a move in there too is winning, as it forces the opponent to play in their own space. Finally I get a variation where the person I'm trying to score a win for actually wins.

Is this even close to strongest play for both, or am I missing something fundamental yet again?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O . 2 . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 5 . | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Of course, :w5:

here is wrong, as White's job is presumably to make sure Black takes the first dame when it's even, leaving White the last one. I'm tempted to say D'oh at myself, but that statement may be wrong, so I won't.

In which case:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 5 2 . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O . . | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Now there's an odd number of dame again, meaning Black has to take one, hoping that White takes another, giving himself the chance of taking the last one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X . | $$ | O . X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O 1 3 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X . | $$ | O . X O O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Except now Black has his wish. As there are 4 dame and it's White to play, meaning he gets to take 2 and 4, leaving White the first person to fill. As such, Black wins.

So, presumably White has to play to force Black to take the first dame when there's an even number remaining, so he can get the last one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X 2 | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 1 3 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 4 X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O 1 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 3 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C 1 . O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Now White wins, but as :w9:

and

are miai, Black can resist, by forcing White to take the last dame, creating one with a suicide:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 4 X 3 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O 1 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 2 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C . O O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Again White loses. Which means I'm struggling to see how White can force Black to take the last dame.

No, the conclusion of learning is at its most satisfying when the journey is tortuous. It's got to the point where I'm not going to get beaten now

Why the first move is wrong:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O . 2 . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 5 . | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Of course, :w5:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O 5 2 . | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O . . | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | 1 O O 4 X 3 . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Now there's an odd number of dame again, meaning Black has to take one, hoping that White takes another, giving himself the chance of taking the last one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X . | $$ | O . X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O 1 3 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X . | $$ | O . X O O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O X 2 | $$ | O . X . O O O | $$ | O O O O O 1 3 | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O . | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O . | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 4 X 2 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O 1 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 3 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C 1 . O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Now White wins, but as :w9:

and

are miai, Black can resist, by forcing White to take the last dame, creating one with a suicide:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O 4 X 3 O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X O 1 | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X O 2 | $$ ---------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ | . O O O O . C | $$ | O C . O O O O | $$ | O O O O O X X | $$ | . O X X X X X | $$ | O O O X X . C | $$ | X X X X X X X | $$ | . X . X X . C | $$ ---------------[/go]

Again White loses. Which means I'm struggling to see how White can force Black to take the last dame.

Why, ironically, my original suspicion may have been right:

@Mark: Judging by how this sequence is progressing, I suspect there will be a strong correlation between Go strength and Redstone strength.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:59 am ]
Post subject:	Redstone problem 1
Redstone is a form of no pass go. All captures are made with red stones, which are immortal. A player may capture stones of either player, or both. If your last stone remaining on the board has been captured, and it is your turn, you lose. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . . . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| . O O . X . . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Enjoy!

Author:	MarkSteere [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
Looks like a good starting point for me. Thanks Bill.

Author:	topazg [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 1 . \| $$ \| O W X 8 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 6 \| $$ \| 3 O X X X X X \| $$ \| 2 O O 4 X 7 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 4 O 6 \| $$ \| O C 1 W O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| O O X X X X X \| $$ \| X O O X X O B \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O B \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| B O O O O O O \| $$ \| O C 2 C O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| O O X X X X X \| $$ \| X O O X X 1 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 7 2 . \| $$ \| O W X 8 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 6 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| 6 O O O O X W \| $$ \| O C W 1 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O B \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O B \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| O O O O O 2 C \| $$ \| O C C 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| B O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 1 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 3 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 6 2 W \| $$ \| O W X 8 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 4 5 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 3 X . . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| 8 O O O 1 4 C \| $$ \| O C 6 3 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 2 5 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 7 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| O O O O 2 C C \| $$ \| O C C 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| 5 O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 1 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 3 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 6 2 . \| $$ \| O 8 X 9 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 4 5 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 3 X 7 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| 4 O O O X X . \| $$ \| O 2 1 C O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X O \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O O X O 3 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| O O O O 3 6 2 \| $$ \| O C 4 C O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X O \| $$ \| 8 O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O O X 5 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X 7 X X O 1 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| O O O O 1 C C \| $$ \| O C O C O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X O \| $$ \| O O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O O X B C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X B X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` I'm missing something ...

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
topazg wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 1 . \| $$ \| O W X 8 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 6 \| $$ \| 3 O X X X X X \| $$ \| 2 O O 4 X 7 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 4 O 6 \| $$ \| O C 1 W O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| O O X X X X X \| $$ \| X O O X X O B \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O B \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| B O O O O O O \| $$ \| O C 2 C O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| O O X X X X X \| $$ \| X O O X X 1 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 7 2 . \| $$ \| O W X 8 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 6 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| 6 O O O O X W \| $$ \| O C W 1 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O B \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O B \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| O O O O O 2 C \| $$ \| O C C 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| B O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 1 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 3 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 6 2 W \| $$ \| O W X 8 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 4 5 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 3 X . . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| 8 O O O 1 4 C \| $$ \| O C 6 3 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 2 5 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 7 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| O O O O 2 C C \| $$ \| O C C 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| 5 O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 1 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 3 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` I'm missing something ... I am impressed. Here is one thing you are missing. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . X . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O a \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O b \| $$ ---------------[/go]` In this and similar positions, "a" and "b" are miai.

Author:	topazg [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
@Bill How did you get that position? You seem to have missed a Black move? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W Black ? $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 4 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O 3 X X 7 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Continuation?: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 6 2 9 \| $$ \| O . X 8 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 4 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O 3 X X 7 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm10 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 1 6 C \| $$ \| O 2 4 3 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 5 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 7 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W White to play and win? $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . C C \| $$ \| O C C . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]`

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Redstone problem 1 http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5514	Page 1 of 2

Author:	topazg [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
Hold on, you can suicide ....: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 6 2 0 \| $$ \| O . X 8 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 4 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O 3 X X 7 9 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm11 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 3 4 C \| $$ \| O 2 X X O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 1 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm15 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 5 C C \| $$ \| O C 3 1 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 2 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| 7 X 6 X X 4 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` EDIT: Bingo??

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
topazg wrote: @Bill How did you get that position? You seem to have missed a Black move? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W Black ? $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 4 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O 3 X X 7 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Continuation?: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 6 2 9 \| $$ \| O . X 8 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 4 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O 3 X X 7 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm10 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 1 6 C \| $$ \| O 2 4 3 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 5 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 7 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W White to play and win? $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . C C \| $$ \| O C C . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 6 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` That's how I got here.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
topazg wrote: Hold on, you can suicide ....: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 6 2 0 \| $$ \| O . X 8 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 4 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O 3 X X 7 9 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm11 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 3 4 C \| $$ \| O 2 X X O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 1 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm15 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 5 C C \| $$ \| O C 3 1 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 2 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| 7 X 6 X X 4 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` EDIT: Bingo?? "Suicide is painless" -- sometimes. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 4 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O 3 X X . . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 6 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` No bingo yet.

Author:	topazg [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 2 X 5 \| $$ \| O 6 X 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 3 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 1 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| 5 O O O 3 4 C \| $$ \| O C 2 1 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| 7 O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 6 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 8 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| O O O O . C C \| $$ \| O C C . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| O O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X X C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X X C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Nope ... Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W @ $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 6 X 5 \| $$ \| O 4 X 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 3 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O X 4 C \| $$ \| O C 3 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 1 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . C C \| $$ \| O C C . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Man, this is hard ... EDIT: Ignore top sequence, will need redoing as I had a brainfart

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
topazg wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 2 X 5 \| $$ \| O 6 X 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 3 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 1 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| 5 O O O 3 4 C \| $$ \| O C 2 1 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| 7 O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 6 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 8 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| O O O O . C C \| $$ \| O C C . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| O O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X X C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X X C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Nope ... Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W @ $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 6 X 5 \| $$ \| O 4 X 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 3 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O X 4 C \| $$ \| O C 3 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 1 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . C C \| $$ \| O C C . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Man, this is hard ... EDIT: Ignore top sequence, will need redoing as I had a brainfart Oh, you realized no single stone sacrifices are allowed?

Author:	topazg [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 2 X 5 \| $$ \| O 6 X 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 3 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 1 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 2 3 C \| $$ \| O C 5 1 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 4 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 6 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 1 C C \| $$ \| O C O O O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X X C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| 3 X 2 X X X C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` But doesn't that mean that ... this is better for White? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 4 2 0 \| $$ \| O 8 X 6 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 9 X 3 5 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 7 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm11 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 2 5 C \| $$ \| O C 6 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 1 3 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O O X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm17 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| 5 O O O 1 C C \| $$ \| O C C 3 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O O \| $$ \| 6 O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O O X 2 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 4 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Apparently not ... but why not ? Is in the last diagram a stronger resistance than playing at , as in effect, Black's taking a White-only liberty rather than a shared liberty? @Mark: Don't say I'm not giving this variant a fair chance

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
topazg wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 2 X 5 \| $$ \| O 6 X 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 3 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 1 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 2 3 C \| $$ \| O C 5 1 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 4 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 6 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 1 C C \| $$ \| O C O O O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X X C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| 3 X 2 X X X C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` But doesn't that mean that ... this is better for White? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 4 2 0 \| $$ \| O 8 X 6 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 9 X 3 5 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 7 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm11 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 2 5 C \| $$ \| O C 6 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 1 3 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O O X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm17 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| 5 O O O 1 C C \| $$ \| O C C 3 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O O \| $$ \| 6 O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O O X 2 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 4 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Apparently not ... but why not ? Is in the last diagram a stronger resistance than playing at , as in effect, Black's taking a White-only liberty rather than a shared liberty? @Mark: Don't say I'm not giving this variant a fair chance Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O a a \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O a X 3 a \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O a \| $$ ---------------[/go]` After there are an odd number of dame ("a") and Black should play one. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm11 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 1 . C \| $$ \| O C 2 3 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 4 5 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O O X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` In this position and are miai. Black must fill first and White wins. Edit: Added variation after the next note was posted.

Author:	topazg [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
@Bill: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 4 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O . X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` In which case, what _should_ White's resistance be to here? I ask because if Black wins with , I can't see why he'd want to take a dame instead, which I read as losing for Black

Author:	MarkSteere [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
topazg wrote: @Mark: Don't say I'm not giving this variant a fair chance I totally appreciate the effort you're putting into this, Topazg. I fully expected Redstone to be ignored, but I'm glad it wasn't. I'm watching the discussion with intense interest. This is a learning experience for me, and possibly a gateway to learning to play Go

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
topazg, I hate to see you torture yourself. Your first move is wrong. As for missing something fundamental, I suppose that if there were a book on Redstone, you might say that. But this is unfamiliar territory. I am more familiar, from working on no pass go and go infinitesimals. It took me a couple of hours to work out the eye values, to get the idea for the problem, and to work out the details. I could have done it a bit quicker, but I double checked myself at almost every step Edit: Taking a break, could be for a some hours.

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Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
topazg wrote: @Bill: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 4 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O . X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` In which case, what _should_ White's resistance be to here? I ask because if Black wins with , I can't see why he'd want to take a dame instead, which I read as losing for Black Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 4 2 6 \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 5 X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` After there are four dame, all miai. So we can play out the top, starting with . Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 7 . C \| $$ \| O 8 X 9 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O O X O . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm10 $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O 1 2 C O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 3 4 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O O X O 5 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 6 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` After the dame are shared and Black to play loses. I added a variation to #12.

Author:	topazg [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
Bill, you're a real endgame guru, you scare me. Honestly, how easy is this stuff to you?? @Mark: Judging by how this sequence is progressing, I suspect there will be a strong correlation between Go strength and Redstone strength. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 9 2 0 \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 6 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 7 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 8 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm11 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O 2 X 1 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` And now I'm back to something like this, which loses for White again, or this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 9 2 0 \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 6 8 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 5 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 7 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm11 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 1 . C \| $$ \| O 3 X 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm14 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O C 2 1 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 3 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` And now White wins. I'm amazing at playing to lose it seems So...: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 7 8 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 5 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 6 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| 5 O O O 1 X 2 \| $$ \| O 4 X 3 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| 7 O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 6 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X 8 C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm17 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| O O O O O 1 C \| $$ \| O C 2 O O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| O O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X X C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X X C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` See, I've done it again???? The key now seems to be to recognise there are an odd number of dame, to make sure you play one first instead of filling your own liberties. But, on the other hand, one of the key alternatives seems to be to fill your opponent's liberties, which always sounds like a better option. If you suicide two stones (by adding one to a single stone), you seem to buy yourself an extra move, unless your opponent responds by making the point unplayable. Unless.... Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 7 2 8 \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 6 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O 4 X 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 1 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 3 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O C 1 . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O O X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X 2 C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Playing in a two eye point to prevent your opponent getting a move in there too is winning, as it forces the opponent to play in their own space. Finally I get a variation where the person I'm trying to score a win for actually wins. Is this even close to strongest play for both, or am I missing something fundamental yet again?

Author:	topazg [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
No, the conclusion of learning is at its most satisfying when the journey is tortuous. It's got to the point where I'm not going to get beaten now Why the first move is wrong: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Of course, here is wrong, as White's job is presumably to make sure Black takes the first dame when it's even, leaving White the last one. I'm tempted to say D'oh at myself, but that statement may be wrong, so I won't. In which case: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 5 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Now there's an odd number of dame again, meaning Black has to take one, hoping that White takes another, giving himself the chance of taking the last one? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O X . \| $$ \| O . X 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 1 3 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O X . \| $$ \| O . X O O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Except now Black has his wish. As there are 4 dame and it's White to play, meaning he gets to take 2 and 4, leaving White the first person to fill. As such, Black wins. So, presumably White has to play to force Black to take the first dame when there's an even number remaining, so he can get the last one: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O X 2 \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 1 3 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O 4 X 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 1 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 3 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O C 1 . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Now White wins, but as and are miai, Black can resist, by forcing White to take the last dame, creating one with a suicide: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O 4 X 3 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 1 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 2 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O C . O O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Again White loses. Which means I'm struggling to see how White can force Black to take the last dame. Why, ironically, my original suspicion may have been right: Back to the original position: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 1 . \| $$ \| O 5 X 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O a a \| $$ \| a O X X X X X \| $$ \| 2 O O a X 3 a \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O a \| $$ ---------------[/go]` All the points marked "a" are miai, so White has to play at Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . O . \| $$ \| O C 1 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| X O O . X O . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Now there are an even number of dame, and it's Black's turn. There are no non-dame, so White wins. Black has no resistance. Tell me I'm close??

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
topazg wrote: No, the conclusion of learning is at its most satisfying when the journey is tortuous. It's got to the point where I'm not going to get beaten now Why the first move is wrong: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 5 . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Of course, here is wrong, as White's job is presumably to make sure Black takes the first dame when it's even, leaving White the last one. I'm tempted to say D'oh at myself, but that statement may be wrong, so I won't. In which case: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O 5 2 . \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| 1 O O 4 X 3 . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Now there's an odd number of dame again, meaning Black has to take one, hoping that White takes another, giving himself the chance of taking the last one? Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O X . \| $$ \| O . X 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 1 3 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O X . \| $$ \| O . X O O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Except now Black has his wish. As there are 4 dame and it's White to play, meaning he gets to take 2 and 4, leaving White the first person to fill. As such, Black wins. So, presumably White has to play to force Black to take the first dame when there's an even number remaining, so he can get the last one: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O X 2 \| $$ \| O . X . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O 1 3 \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O 4 X 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 1 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 3 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O C 1 . O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Now White wins, but as and are miai, Black can resist, by forcing White to take the last dame, creating one with a suicide: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm9 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O 4 X 3 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X O 1 \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O 2 \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm13 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O O . C \| $$ \| O C . O O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O X X \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| O O O X X . C \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X . C \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Again White loses. Which means I'm struggling to see how White can force Black to take the last dame. Why, ironically, my original suspicion may have been right: Back to the original position: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm1 White to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . 1 . \| $$ \| O 5 X 4 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O a a \| $$ \| a O X X X X X \| $$ \| 2 O O a X 3 a \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O a \| $$ ---------------[/go]` All the points marked "a" are miai, so White has to play at Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm6 Black to play $$ --------------- $$ \| . O O O . O . \| $$ \| O C 1 2 O O O \| $$ \| O O O O O . . \| $$ \| . O X X X X X \| $$ \| X O O . X O . \| $$ \| X X X X X X X \| $$ \| . X . X X O . \| $$ ---------------[/go]` Now there are an even number of dame, and it's Black's turn. There are no non-dame, so White wins. Black has no resistance. Tell me I'm close?? Bingo! Moves 1 and 2 each gain 1/2 point, but differ by a dame.

Author:	MarkSteere [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Redstone problem 1
topazg wrote: @Mark: Judging by how this sequence is progressing, I suspect there will be a strong correlation between Go strength and Redstone strength. That would be the best possible outcome