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Playing games with yourself
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Author:  OtakuViking [ Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Playing games with yourself
I resisted the temptation to type -playing with yourself- as it might invoke misconceptions?!

But the title still sounds somehow....bah!

Okay. Recently I've taken to playing a game with myself on my board every night before I go to bed. I might not finish it, but I try to think about good moves. Alot of different moves pop into my head, and sometimes I play out sequences to that prove my intuition/reading is right, that a move was wrong/overplay. I try to think in terms of the whole board and play sound moves and I often find the games to be rather even.

I was wondering whether playing such games contribute to your strength? I think it should. But if so, how effective is it measured against say, replaying pro games, tsumego and playing games online. I do it purely for fun and to try and combat my insomnia... still, I would like to believe there are benefits to be had from such an activity.

Anyone got any input on this? Obviously doing it right is important. If you blitz with yourself it's meaningless. You have to challenge yourself to play different, good moves. Try new things, etc...

I'm also curious as to how it would possibly look if you posted such a game for review? Would be interesting:O

So yeah, any input on this? :salute:
Author:  Celebrir [ Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing games with yourself
I play against myself as well (maybe "against" would unbah this title ?).

It is really intresting that this games rarely finish with a difference larger than komi even if I favor the position of a colour during the game. The rest of the games end in resignation (>20 points) because I really overplayed somewhere or find a really great move for one colour.

I think the most important while playing such games is to be honest. "This should be possible to kill, but it could be dangerous and I don't want W/B lose this group." is not allowed.

I have the feeling this helps my reading because I learn to look at the game from both perspectives, which helps a lot in real games in my opinion. Besides I test new strategies at this way without losing intresting games against other players.
Author:  mw42 [ Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing games with yourself
It's probably okay insofar as it is a reading exercise. One of the things about playing against a human different from yourself is that you get to see how they respond to your moves -- did they play the way you expected or did you miss their move? If you play against yourself too much you may be reinforcing your bad habits.
Author:  Loons [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing games with yourself
I find it impossible to concentrate against myself, somehow. I think I get confused trying to preempt my own moves.


Attachment:
just so bad.sgf [1.54 KiB]
Downloaded 1739 times
Author:  entropi [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing games with yourself
If you give yourself handicap and still white wins, wouldn't that mean that something is wrong with your basic understanding of the game?
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:41 am ]
Post subject: 
entropi,
entropi wrote:
...something is wrong with your basic understanding of the game?
Seems a tautology -- true for everyone all the way even to pros: it's just a matter of different degrees of "wrongness"
(or "correctness," both sides of the same coin). :mrgreen:
Author:  topazg [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing games with yourself
Hahaha, Loons, that game was awesome - 2 crazy aggressive players ripping lumps out of each other indiscriminately, without a care for losing groups as long as they get to kill bigger ones :D
Author:  entropi [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
entropi,
entropi wrote:
...something is wrong with your basic understanding of the game?
Seems a tautology -- true for everyone all the way even to pros: it's just a matter of different degrees of "wrongness"
(or "correctness," both sides of the same coin). :mrgreen:


Well, I should have said "very wrong" :) A pro would probably not lose against himself with handicap, because he would have a relatively good understanding of when and how to take risks, how to use handicap stones etc.
But giving yourself handicap is odd anyway...
Author:  HKA [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing games with yourself
I have posted on this subject before. Preinternet, I imagine this was a useful thing to do.

However, now that you can play folks 24/7 I think the utility is too minimal.

That being said, back in the day when I used to do this, I got very little out of even games.

But giving myself 9 stones - that proved very interesting.
Author:  Loons [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing games with yourself
(Slightly, but more interesting for myself) @Entropi

Pre-komi, white did occasionally win even games, eh.

This is broadly a mistake; at the time I didn't like the feeling of threatening a ladder I didn't have, as white (who should have played 'a').
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . W O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black clearly knows the joseki here, but what on earth is this move!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In the game, I believe I (may have?) badly misjudged this sequence for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 :w20: at the marked stone.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 1 4 . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | 2 W X X O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 3 X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


...After which, white sets up and gets a powerful pincer on black's top group (which was heavy), and black broadly loses a fight.

Both players embarrassingly lose focus as the game reaches yose, and decide to let groups pointlessly live (and die!).
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
entropi,
entropi wrote:
Well, I should have said "very wrong" :) A pro...
Even pros sometimes make "very wrong" moves (and therefore, understanding) considered by other, higher level pros.
In the NHK documentary about Fujisawa Hideuki, he was yelling at his PRO students about their moves. :mrgreen:
Go is endless. :study:
Author:  logan [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Playing games with yourself
I receive the chance to play against a pro every time I review a pro game.
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