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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: What is that stone worth?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:21 pm 
Judan
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I'm trying a new idea here.

I've seen many games in which DDKs - and higher - play moves that lower the value of their own stones. I'm thinking that it might be a useful exercise to figure out what stones are worth in some randomly chosen position.

Assume that you are black in the following position. It is white to move. The one unusual thing about this variation of go is that one player can offer to pay the other to remove a stone. In other words, prior to making his move, white says, "I'll give you 10 prisoners if I can remove K14 from the board before I move."

Would you accept? Probably not, for white could then play at K14 or L14 and capture the black group on the upper side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O . X . O . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . X X O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . B . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What would white have to pay you for K14? 25 prisoners? 30 prisoners? 35 prisoners?

How about a different stone: the one at B4? I'd sell it for 10 stones without thinking twice.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O . X . O . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . X X O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . X . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B O O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So that is the idea. I'd like to hear your opinion on what five individual stones are worth: the ones at K14, B4, C6, D16, and R9. What is the minimum price that you would accept for any single one of them?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O . X . O . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O B . . X . X X O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . B . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B O O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My numbers are:
K14: 40
B4: 6
C6: 8
D16: 3
R9: 10

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: What is that stone worth?
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:47 pm 
Gosei
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Tygem: greendemon
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How much do i have to pay to add a stone at P3?
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: What is that stone worth?
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:56 pm 
Judan
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emeraldemon wrote:
How much do i have to pay to add a stone at P3?


How much is it worth to you?

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Offline daal
 Post subject: Re: What is that stone worth?
Post #4 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:08 am 
Oza
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
How much is it worth to you?


You give me 10$ each, you can take as many as you want. :)

But seriously Joaz, this is an interesting idea, and while I have no idea how to determine the values, it is a nice reminder that each stone should be earning points.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: What is that stone worth?
Post #5 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:51 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
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A side note: I'm not convinced black is alive even with k14. I haven't tried to read out all the variations though.

k14: 32
d16: 4
r9: 15
b4: 2
c6: 5

p3: 24
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Offline Jayy
 Post subject: Re: What is that stone worth?
Post #6 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:20 pm 
Beginner

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I'll take a shot at this.

K14: 42
B4: 4
C6: 6
D16:4
R9: 16
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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: What is that stone worth?
Post #7 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:54 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 1848
Location: Bellevue, WA
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Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
D16: 10
K14: 60
R9: 25
D6: 5
B4: 10
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: What is that stone worth?
Post #8 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:14 pm 
Tengen

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OGS: Hyperpape 4k
I sense another game variant brewing...

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Offline bakekoq
 Post subject: Re: What is that stone worth?
Post #9 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:37 pm 
Dies with sente

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bakekoq
Online playing schedule: wah,almost everyday in OGS right now.I still can't play in KGS because the limitness of my network.
wowh, it's really funny idea. I mean I just found out this idea right now. and if U can remove some stones with just a value, it's not considering as go normal. maybe it can be a new variation of go.
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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: What is that stone worth?
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:12 pm 
Lives in sente
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no need to restrict it to 1 stone. How much is removing the 5 stones around Q9 worth? How much is sente worth?
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