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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Best protection in endgame
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:59 pm 
Gosei
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Here's a position I botched in a recent game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


What's the best way for black to play, and what are the followups? I think I know the answer now, but I'm curious to see others' sequences.
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #2 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:11 pm 
Lives in sente

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Universal go server handle: speedchase
This looks like the only move to me, but I am not sure
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 7 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8|
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

I think it becomes seki
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #3 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:30 pm 
Judan
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This looks like the vital point to me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #4 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:30 pm 
Tengen

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I too get that the diagonal move lives without ko or seki.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #5 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:11 pm 
Gosei
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Yes it lives, but I don't think that way gets the most points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . B 2 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Can you find a way to save this stone?
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #6 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:11 pm 
Gosei
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I don't think your move works Joaz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 3 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 2 5 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . 6 X 4 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 3 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 2 6 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 4 5 |
$$ --------------------[/go]

However, I can't see anything wrong with this move to live:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

This post by Dusk Eagle was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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Offline LocoRon
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #7 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:32 pm 
Lives with ko
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speedchase wrote:
This looks like the only move to me, but I am not sure
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 7 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

I think it becomes seki


hidden since the original was. ;)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 If white makes the mistake of 6...
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Other than that little nitpick, I think you're right, black 1 does look like it leads to seki.
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #8 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:56 pm 
Gosei
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Rank: 4d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 6 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

Depending on the outside, this may be white's best play. Black escapes but with no eyes.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #9 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:26 pm 
Oza
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LocoRon wrote:
speedchase wrote:
This looks like the only move to me, but I am not sure
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 7 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

I think it becomes seki


but 4 at 8?


hidden since the original was. ;)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 If white makes the mistake of 6...
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Other than that little nitpick, I think you're right, black 1 does look like it leads to seki.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #10 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:43 pm 
Gosei
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Is anyone else getting timeouts? It took me several tries to post.

I was wrong before, I think Dusk Eagle has it right.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #11 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:37 pm 
Judan
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Kaya handle: Test
Upon further reflection, this is what I would play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #12 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:17 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
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Three ways to live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . 1 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]



Which is best?

Edit: I had it right the first time. ;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #13 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:09 am 
Judan
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Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
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Rank: 1D AGA
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Kaya handle: Test
Bill Spight wrote:
Three ways to live.
...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
...


Maybe two?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 4 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 6 |
$$ , . . . . . O X 5 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 3 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 3 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 4 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #14 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:41 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 5 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 3 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Maybe three? :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #15 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:42 am 
Gosei
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Posts: 1744
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
What about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 3 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #16 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:57 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
More than a hint.

I think that which is best depends upon the rest of the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X a |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


If there is no ko fight, now or later, :b1: is best. Mainly because it threatens to play at "a".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 5 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 3 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . C 6 X 7 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


In many circumstances :w2: and :w4: will be double sente. With no ko fight, it does not hurt to play them soon, nor does it hurt to play :w6:. The end result is that Black gets 4 points in the corner and White gets 1 point at :ec: .

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: emeraldemon
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Best protection in endgame
Post #17 Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:56 pm 
Judan
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Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
OK, it might be three. :oops:

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