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Tsumego from a game
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6378
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Author:  jts [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Tsumego from a game

Black to move. Is the group on the bottom alive?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

:lol: You're evil.

Author:  Boidhre [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

I can't find a way for black to live, I'm a liberty short in the capturing race on the left where I'm probably missing something. Thanks for a fun problem to play with though. :)

Author:  speedchase [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

how does white kill :b1:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 . . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Boidhre [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

I couldn't find a good answer to:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'd be delighted to be shown a refutation.

Edit:

I think I see one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Never mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 7 X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 6 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 0 . 9 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . 2 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . 1 X O . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  speedchase [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

Boidhre wrote:

Edit:

I think I see one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

that is what I was thinking

Author:  Boidhre [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

See my edit.

Author:  speedchase [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 7 X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 6 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 9 . . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Boidhre [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 7 X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 2 6 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 9 . . 8 . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black lives?

Edit: I guess so. :)

Author:  speedchase [ Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

I think so. There are some interesting variations with the cut, and I can't read it completely but I don't see anyway for white to kill

Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

Looks like a difficult fight for both sides


Author:  ez4u [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

@Herman - What happens if B cuts at H5 instead of L4 in yours?

Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

ez4u wrote:
@Herman - What happens if B cuts at H5 instead of L4 in yours?


H6, then L4 if black extends and it doesn't look good?

But really, you would have to ask: Click to show

Author:  ez4u [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

Ha! Ha! When you posted your variation I thought, "Wow! This is as bad as the 'Big Fight' game". But I never considered that it might actually be so. :blackeye:

@jts - You rat! :bow:

Author:  speedchase [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 1 3 2 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black at least has this ko variation right? he also has the local threats on the outside

Author:  mitsun [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

Am I missing something?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 5 1 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 board
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 2 X O O O . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . X O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . 1 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

B has lots of local ko threats

Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

mitsun wrote:
Am I missing something?


Nah, just that this is a bit of a joke by jts. The position is from the Famous Killing Game Of 1926. And my reply just shows the next 40-ish moves from the game :)

As to why Karigane did not play your variation, I don't know. And I'm afraid it's too late to ask him now :)

Too slow, perhaps? In your ko variation, white defends the E4 cutting point with sente, while keeping the ko in reserve.

Author:  mitsun [ Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

HermanHiddema wrote:
mitsun wrote:
Am I missing something?

Nah, just that this is a bit of a joke by jts. The position is from the Famous Killing Game Of 1926. And my reply just shows the next 40-ish moves from the game :)

Aha, I was definitely missing something then, thanks :)

Author:  jts [ Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tsumego from a game

Here is the whole game. I've added in comments and variations from various sources, and marked out the ones that are from actual Go professionals.



Attachments:
Killing Game.sgf [11.04 KiB]
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