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Middlegame problem from game
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6576		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  kvasir [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Middlegame problem from game
I played black in this game and there was this position were I had to decide how to invade/reduce/attack/defend/surround. It is early in the game and I think the position is very good for black so he should make good moves and keep this advantage. This worked out in the game but there are many other ideas. I'm wondering how other players would handle this position.

How would you play as black?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . X . , . . X X . , O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here is the game if you are interested.
Author:  Loons [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
I might R8; it looks hard to me for white to be severe. Also I can't see a clever way of patching that four space rent in the lower side.

Also, seems white's result top left looks singularly and unnecessarily terrible. Perhaps he could play 50 at C15?
Author:  topazg [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
As black, I'd play N5 and then C15
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
I'm inclined to R-08, too. White is thin on the right side.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
Bill Spight wrote:
I'm inclined to R-08...

I like Q8. R8 is too risky for me.

topazg wrote:
As black, I'd play N5 and then C15

N5 looks like aji keshi to me.

Sooner or later black must invade/reduce the white moyo on the right side. And it probably has to be soon, because O10 is close to being a sealing move. N5 encourages white's O6 which makes it harder to get out.


Lastly, move 43 makes me vaguely unhappy for reasons that I can't really explain. I would have played F17 instead.
Author:  illluck [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
I personally would consider G7 (since it looks like the corner needs a move after that) and then M7.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
On R-08 vs Q-08:

For one thing I am influenced by a book I picked up not long ago. One idea from that book is the importance of diagonally connected points for sabaki (like for making eyes:)).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . O C . . |
$$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . C . 1 . . |
$$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . C . C . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . X . , . . X X . , O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The :ec: points indicate diagonally related points to :b1:, all of which are good points. Another play I considered is the attachment at "a". :)
Author:  hyperpape [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
Can you explain to me? I am slow, and see only jumps, not the diagonally connected points.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
hyperpape wrote:
Can you explain to me? I am slow, and see only jumps, not the diagonally connected points.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . O C . . |
$$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . C . C . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . C . 1 . . |
$$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . C . C . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . C . C . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . O . O . C . |
$$ | . . O , . X . X . , . . X X . , O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


¿Es claro? :)
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
Bill Spight wrote:
... I picked up not long ago. One idea from that book is the importance of diagonally connected points for sabaki (like for making eyes:)).
...


Bill, could you start a new thread on this? I'd like to hear details. Thanks
Author:  hyperpape [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
I guess the idea is that the marked points in the original are followup plays, and after those plays, you have a selection of those other marked points available as diagonal plays.
Author:  kvasir [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
Loons wrote:
I might R8; it looks hard to me for white to be severe. Also I can't see a clever way of patching that four space rent in the lower side.

Also, seems white's result top left looks singularly and unnecessarily terrible. Perhaps he could play 50 at C15?


Agree about white's result in top left. My idea was to reduce on the right because black might not get there first and then invade the starpoint shimari to have more points. I think this would be more reasonable for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 6 . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . 3 4 . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . |
$$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . X . , . . X X . , O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  kvasir [ Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Lastly, move 43 makes me vaguely unhappy for reasons that I can't really explain. I would have played F17 instead.


I played 43 (h4) because I was looking for a way to attack white's bottom left group and it seemed if black tried to attack from the left side he could only take profit on the bottom and in gote. My decision was to take the profit right away and wait for a better chance to attack. The shape is maybe sad because (I think) normally when h4 is played it is to protect a weakness on e3. I played it to have a strong outside and to surround territory.
Author:  kvasir [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
After some thought I came up with this if black r8. Maybe reasonable way to play for both. I think white could also choose to ask black some l&d questions, but I'm not sure if this can be good for white unless black makes mistakes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm2 a-d are 12-15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . 0 6 O 9 5 . |
$$ | X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 8 1 4 . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . 2 b B . . |
$$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . c . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . d . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . X . , . . X X . , O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
... I picked up not long ago. One idea from that book is the importance of diagonally connected points for sabaki (like for making eyes:)).
...


Bill, could you start a new thread on this? I'd like to hear details. Thanks


Remind me in December. I am about to be swamped with work. :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
kvasir wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Lastly, move 43 makes me vaguely unhappy for reasons that I can't really explain. I would have played F17 instead.


I played 43 (h4) because I was looking for a way to attack white's bottom left group and it seemed if black tried to attack from the left side he could only take profit on the bottom and in gote. My decision was to take the profit right away and wait for a better chance to attack. The shape is maybe sad because (I think) normally when h4 is played it is to protect a weakness on e3. I played it to have a strong outside and to surround territory.


It is Joaz who has problems with :b43:, pas moi. :)
Author:  Phelan [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
No one else wants to play D4? It was the first thing that came to my mind.
White then has to find a way to live.
Since every other group seems relatively stable, it seems the most urgent move to me.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
Phelan wrote:
No one else wants to play D4? It was the first thing that came to my mind.
White then has to find a way to live.
Since every other group seems relatively stable, it seems the most urgent move to me.


It certainly threatens white, but white has lots of room to run, so he need not take it seriously yet. He would tenuki and take a big point.
Wait until the center is clogged. Then it is an important move.
Author:  kvasir [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
Bill Spight wrote:
It is Joaz who has problems with :b43:, pas moi. :)


Sorry about that. Made mistake with the quotes :) I corrected it.
Author:  topazg [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Middlegame problem from game
Phelan wrote:
No one else wants to play D4? It was the first thing that came to my mind.
White then has to find a way to live.
Since every other group seems relatively stable, it seems the most urgent move to me.


I think there are better moves (like illluck's suggestion) that put a burden of living on White whilst giving Black benefit elsewhere. D4 doesn't seem to gain Black much, and White's way of making life may damage Black's prospects elsewhere.
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