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| New move overlooked? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8311 |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | New move overlooked? |
I may have just missed a thread but I was surprised not to see the new Black 3 of this game mentioned here. However, it gets a nice discussion in the latest Gekkan Go World (available on the iPad/iPhone) by Oya Koichi, who mixes with amateur players a lot and so can talk the right talk. Even though usually ignored, it's still a truism that people need to understand josekis rather than memorise them, so I'll leave you with a test: what is the purpose of Black 3? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
John Fairbairn wrote: what is the purpose of Black 3? Trolling |
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| Author: | Ortho [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
Had the mouse already lined up on that spot and didnt notice that W played in that corner. |
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| Author: | wineandgolover [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
I'd guess it's to create ladder breaker variations for the magic sword joseki in the lower right? Maybe this is why white never even approached the lower right? |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
In addition to wineandgolover's comment, it seems to prevent a shimari in sente. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
skydyr wrote: In addition to wineandgolover's comment, it seems to prevent a shimari in sente. But to do so it makes a pretty bad exchange, particularly if white gets sente to play first in that area next with atari. Because there were two empty corners black reckons he'll get sente to continue there, though I wonder about this resistance from white, attempting to turn the contact into a bad move: Does black now take the empty corner and allow the ponnuki? 9 is one possibility, that shimari seems the most important place to diminish the power of the ponnuki. I think this is quite playable for white as although black has a fast development white is very thick so can make very wide extensions that are liable to end up as territory, and there are no probes etc in the corner like there would be with a shimari. This rather reminds me of this fuseki discussed in some book that the tenukis up to 7 are ok, but allowing white 8 is a mistake as it gets too thick. So would black save his stone from atari? Maybe just try to stop his stones being captured in sente (but hopefully not becoming heavy) before going for the empty corner. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
My assumption was that black would at least pull out of atari once before taking the empty corner. It wouldn't be too different from a high shimari that black has peeped and cut from the outside when white tenukied. I don't think it's controversial to say that if white didn't get compensation for that elsewhere, it wouldn't be a good trade. I guess the real question is whether the aji of a cut on the other side is worth not having approached normally. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
Black 3 was played against me several times during the recent years. I am not sure yet whether it is equal or bad. Its major meaning is to offer strategic choices, because the opponent can make the first choice of directions. |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
Full marks to Robert. The pro view of the move was that it is a probe. Mind you, it's not the earliest you can do this. White 2 as a high approach against komuku was a feature of the already forgotten 21st century go movement. |
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| Author: | TIM82 [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
Never seen 3 before, but I like the feel of this probe, although I'm probably not seeing even half of the implications. However, what I really don't get is: why just the short extension to A below, seems really slow? Why not e.g. b-c-d sequence instead? Is it bad or just a different game? (I think that if black just makes a wider extension without playing B first, white will play B and black won't be happy). Please enlighten me  |
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| Author: | oren [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
John Fairbairn wrote: latest Gekkan Go World (available on the iPad/iPhone) Available on any browser now with the new e-go books which is nice. They've been offering the last couple for free in a promotion. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
I don't see how it's much of a probe as hane in the corner seems almost the only sensible answer for white (as there aren't active ladders/kos), though I suppose you could hane outside if you don't like corners (but then why play 3-4?). |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
Quote: I don't see how it's much of a probe as hane in the corner seems almost the only sensible answer for white (as there aren't active laddersladders/kos), though I suppose you could hane outside if you don't like corners (but then why play 3-4?). Admittedly I have the advantage of Oya's text before me, but this seems like limited thinking to me - and the point of my initial question was to highlight how we amateurs think (usually in limited ways) about josekis. Allow me to dilate a little. First, Oya mentions the similar case of White 2 on san-san. In that case, it has been historically rare for Black to strike at its shoulder with 3. Overwhelmingly, Black chooses to play in the lower right first (to set up ladders and ko threats, Oya says), though a play in the lower left has been favoured by some. So the first question to ponder is why this Black 3 might be different. The obvious first answer is that is a contact play and so is more forcing. Second, Oya discusses first an option not mentioned in the quote - White tenukis. However, he rules that as good for Black - the first benefit of Black 2 being a contact play. He gets good shape in the corner too easily by playing at san-san next. Third, the nobis on either side are also posited as options by Oya. For the one on san-san, this transposes into a line where White plays 2 at san-san and Black 3 hits the shoulder. But with this huge difference: in the few cases where Black did try the early shoulder hit, White always nobied up the left side. In short, the Black 3 of the present game is giving White a chance to go wrong, which seems like a perectly reasonable motive for a probe, even if not the best reason. As for the nobi the other way, Oya said this was playable for White but would be a case of following Black's orders (which may be anathema to most testosterone-fuelled male players, but is that objectively bad?). Oya implies the outside hane is the worst choice by White. Black plays san-san. So we have five choices by White, at least two of which are fine and at least two more are plausible. What more do you need to define a probe? As regards the shape of White 2 and Black 3, if you want to study this further, the GoGoD database has 172 instances, ancient and modern, on an empty quadrant. In those cases the outward nobi is the commonest reply (67 times), ahead of the inside hane). The outside hane is least common but does appear 23 times. Oya mentions in passing that other Japanese players apart from Kanazawa to watch for new moves are, of course, Ohashi Hirofumi as we have seen recently on this forum, but also Onoda Takuya 2-dan of the Kansai Ki-in. In his case, though, maybe 'weird' is better than 'new'. GoGoD has several of his games. One starts with the windmill joseki in the centre. In another he plays three moves in one corner: 3-3, 4-4 and 5-5. I kid you not. In fact, when you think about it, what is characteristic of that style of play is that it is the very antithesis of probing. You play what you want irrespective of what the opponent does. Isn't go rich? |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
As John writes above there are quite a few examples in GoGoD of attaching to the 3-4 stone as the second play in a corner, dating back to at least 1809. However, the vast majority were played as either ko threats or ladder breakers. The first case that I could find that did not involve a ladder or ko was from 1956. The earliest in a game that such a play appeared was on move 6 here. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
John Fairbairn wrote: Second, Oya discusses first an option not mentioned in the quote - White tenukis. However, he rules that as good for Black - the first benefit of Black 2 being a contact play. He gets good shape in the corner too easily by playing at san-san next. That seemed so obvious to me it wasn't worth saying. John Fairbairn wrote: Third, the nobis on either side are also posited as options by Oya. For the one on san-san, this transposes into a line where White plays 2 at san-san and Black 3 hits the shoulder. But with this huge difference: in the few cases where Black did try the early shoulder hit, White always nobied up the left side. In short, the Black 3 of the present game is giving White a chance to go wrong, which seems like a perectly reasonable motive for a probe, even if not the best reason. As for the nobi the other way, Oya said this was playable for White but would be a case of following Black's orders (which may be anathema to most testosterone-fuelled male players, but is that objectively bad?). Both nobis seemed slack to me and, as you often say in your books, being forced is anathema to a professional. But yes I should have said I considered and rejected these. John Fairbairn wrote: So we have five choices by White, at least two of which are fine and at least two more are plausible. What more do you need to define a probe? I don't follow you here. I thought you said tenuki was bad, nobi to left was white taking the chance to go wrong so that's bad, outside hane was bad, inside hane was good, and the only move in a grey area was nobi to the right which I rejected but Oya said was playable but following orders which is hardly a ringing endorsement. So that seems like 1.5 good replies to me. If there were instances of white choosing an answer other than the inside hane then I'd consider it more of a probe. John Fairbairn wrote: As regards the shape of White 2 and Black 3, if you want to study this further, the GoGoD database has 172 instances, ancient and modern, on an empty quadrant. In those cases the outward nobi is the commonest reply (67 times), ahead of the inside hane). The outside hane is least common but does appear 23 times. But the problem with searching for an empty quadrant is the vast majority of times the contact move is played it is as a ladder breaker/maker or ko threat (or ko threat preparation). Indeed in my database (2010 GoGoD plus a few others) there are 135 examples of the contact in an empty quadrant and fully 133 are involving ko/ladder. Of the 2 that aren't, one hanes in the corner and white gets a large corner and black a wall which makes sense with a pincer fight going on along the side, and in the other (by An Younggil of gogameguru) black in the corner defends with the outside nobi (there is a white shimari in that direction so I interpret that as wishing to deny white the opportunity to hane on the outside and develop that direction if black hanes in the corner) and it reverts to the avalanche. Also there's an unfinished joseki going on in the other adjacent corner so black may be wishing to avoid letting white get strong in sente which would alter the dynamics of that corner. So given another board position the gentle nobi does appeal, but on the position in question I would be interested to see a game in which white chooses a move other than the inside hane. Black could try to turn the board position into one in which white regrets his choice, but as it is a contact play that area is very hot and is likely to be returned to as soon as the empty corners are claimed, if not before. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
Uberdude wrote: Of the 2 that aren't, one hanes in the corner and white gets a large corner and black a wall which makes sense with a pincer fight going on along the side ez4u wrote: Ninja'd! |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
Uberdude wrote: John Fairbairn wrote: Second, Oya discusses first an option not mentioned in the quote - White tenukis. However, he rules that as good for Black - the first benefit of Black 2 being a contact play. He gets good shape in the corner too easily by playing at san-san next. That seemed so obvious to me it wasn't worth saying. Actually, here's a tenuki I think is playable (as it creates miai) if you want to demonstrate fighting spirit and out-troll your opponent: |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
TIM82 wrote: Never seen 3 before, but I like the feel of this probe, although I'm probably not seeing even half of the implications. However, what I really don't get is: why just the short extension to A below, seems really slow? Why not e.g. b-c-d sequence instead? Is it bad or just a different game? (I think that if black just makes a wider extension without playing B first, white will play B and black won't be happy). Please enlighten me When I replayed the game A did surprise me too as being very tight. Pushing and then making a big extension has the downside of pushing on the 4th line so gives up a lot of territory and I don't really like such a gamble here, but it could be worth it sometimes, for example that game ez4u posted with the pincer fighting. Also by not pushing and playing tightly black does aim at d13 which he plays soon after. |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
Quote: I don't follow you here. I thought you said tenuki was bad, nobi to left was white taking the chance to go wrong so that's bad, outside hane was bad, inside hane was good, and the only move in a grey area was nobi to the right which I rejected but Oya said was playable but following orders which is hardly a ringing endorsement. So that seems like 1.5 good replies to me. If there were instances of white choosing an answer other than the inside hane then I'd consider it more of a probe. I was lazy before and forgot to add a point about limited thinking. It is this: why assume just Black 3 is the probe? Kanazawa may have expected White 4 as played but wanted the really sharp end of the probe to be a little further down the line. For that, a contact play is ideal. But that seemed so obvious to me I couldn't be bothered to say it. And of course I must be careful not to be accused of trolling any further. |
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| Author: | quantumf [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New move overlooked? |
John Fairbairn wrote: It is this: why assume just Black 3 is the probe? Kanazawa may have expected White 4 as played but wanted the really sharp end of the probe to be a little further down the line. For that, a contact play is ideal. Interesting. Please elaborate, if you can? Are you (or the original author) suggesting black 7 is the real probe? Or the black 5/7 combo? Or even further down? |
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